1. Subscribersonhouse
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    17 Mar '06 11:57
    How can I count the ways: How bout this for one:
    The blatant way they subjugate women to the point of making them
    on the same level as cattle.
  2. Cape Town
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    17 Mar '06 12:25
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How can I count the ways: How bout this for one:
    The blatant way they subjugate women to the point of making them
    on the same level as cattle.
    Hardly a concept of Islam. Christianity is no better in this regard. Lets face it most religions are Chauvinistic.
  3. Standard memberHalitose
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    17 Mar '06 12:401 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Hardly a concept of Islam. Christianity is no better in this regard. Lets face it most religions are Chauvinistic.
    Very interesting; would you care to substantiate yet another of your sweeping statements? I've just about lost all respect for your debating skills.
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    17 Mar '06 13:09
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Very interesting; would you care to substantiate yet another of your sweeping statements? I've just about lost all respect for your debating skills.
    Which part of my statement do you want me to start with?
    The chauvanistic part is easy, show me one religion which has a female God.
  5. Standard memberHalitose
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    17 Mar '06 13:28
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Which part of my statement do you want me to start with?
    The chauvanistic part is easy, show me one religion which has a female God.
    The part where Christianity “subjugates women to the point of making them on the same level as cattle” would be a great start. A quotation of Christ would be a great plus to drive home your point.
  6. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    17 Mar '06 13:33
    Originally posted by Halitose
    The part where Christianity “subjugates women to the point of making them on the same level as cattle” would be a great start. A quotation of Christ would be a great plus to drive home your point.
    "Women are cows."

    --Jesus
  7. Cape Town
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    17 Mar '06 13:421 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    The part where Christianity “subjugates women to the point of making them on the same level as cattle” would be a great start. A quotation of Christ would be a great plus to drive home your point.
    I see you misunderstood my post. I actually did not say that Christianity “subjugates women to the point of making them on the same level as cattle”
    What I said was that was not a concept of Islam. I then went on to add that in terms of the attitude towards women Islam and Christianity are very similar.

    [edit] Where I come from a good woman is worth at least 20 cows!
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    17 Mar '06 14:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    [edit] Where I come from a good woman is worth at least 20 cows!
    The Egyptian goddess of beauty, Hathor, was also the cow goddess. So...
  9. London
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    17 Mar '06 14:45
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The chauvanistic part is easy, show me one religion which has a female God.
    1. Technically speaking, the Christian God is neither male nor female.

    2. Hinduism has female goddesses (far too many to list).
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    17 Mar '06 14:51
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    1. Technically speaking, the Christian God is neither male nor female
    Indeed. It is only chauvinism that insists on using He all the time.
  11. London
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    17 Mar '06 14:53
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Indeed. It is only chauvinism that insists on using He all the time.
    I disagree. While [male] chauvinism may be a part of it, there are also sound theological reasons for it.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    17 Mar '06 14:541 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    I disagree. While [male] chauvinism may be a part of it, there are also sound theological reasons for it.
    Oh, good, something to debate. Shoot! (That is, fire away with the reasons, please).
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    17 Mar '06 15:26
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    How can I count the ways: How bout this for one:
    The blatant way they subjugate women to the point of making them
    on the same level as cattle.
    Who are "they"? All muslims?

    Do you not have any female Muslim friends who do something other than graze and give milk?
  14. London
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    17 Mar '06 15:561 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Oh, good, something to debate. Shoot! (That is, fire away with the reasons, please).
    First, a preliminary note: I think that the Holy Spirit is referred to in the feminine in some parts of the NT (I remember reading something to that effect by Nemesio a while back).

    Second note: One needs to be clear whether one is referring to the First Person of the Trinity or the Triune God when one says "God". A neutral pronoun is probably more appropriate for the latter (though I don't like calling God "It" ). I'm assuming we're talking about the former.

    I think there are a few good reasons for referring to the First Person of the Trinity in the masculine. First, God is almost always referred to in the masculine when speaking through the prophets. This not just true of the "He said" verses, but also in terms of the imagery used (e.g. Hosea's bride). Second (not unrelated to the first), is the Christological and ecclesial angle. Christ was, of course, a man and the Church is referred to as "the Bride of Christ" (by Paul).

    Third, the male pronoun reflects better (I think) the personal qualities of God such as his majesty, grandeur and power. From a catechetical perspective, it is easier to communicate the balance of justice, mercy and love that is God by using the term "Father".

    And, of course, Christ Himself called God (and asked us to call God) "Father".
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    17 Mar '06 16:531 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    Who are "they"? All muslims?

    Do you not have any female Muslim friends who do something other than graze and give milk?
    Er, have you been to the middle east lately? I used to live there. I SAW how women were treated. One time we went there to study the muslim orphanage situation (this was a couple of years after we had finished a three year stint there working at Intel in Jerusalem).
    As you no doubt know, another cruel twist of islam is not allowing the adaption of orphans, but thats another story. We were at this muslim orphanage near Ramallah and the lady who ran the place had to hide one of the women who worked for her, right under our noses. These thugs came in, don't know any other way to describe them, Thugs of Islam, their god sworn duty was to find and kill this woman for the crime of adultery. It was later proven she did no such thing but if the head lady had not hidden her, she would have been dead, THEN proven innocent so don't EVEN tell me how fairly women are treated by muslims.
    Do you think the male partner, who was also innocent, had these thugs after him? No, boys will be boys...
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