movement to atheism

@kellyjay said
I believe God who is eternal created the world in a single day, then He went about
doing other things for 5 more days, and as a example to us rested on the 7th.

I don't believe in everything from nothing.
Nor do I believe that chaos can give the precise necessary forces in the universe to
pull it together, maintain it, then without control produce and maintain life.
Y ...[text shortened]... ity to follow evidence where it leads, it only allows you to accept that
which proves your beliefs.

I also don't believe in 'everything from nothing.'


I don't believe there ever was 'nothing.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Chaos often operates within a large system of order.

Chaos is a term used for the concept of complete disorder and confusion. It's not a name for a person, place or thing.

If chaos is used to describe the condition of matter in some unimaginable past, and matter would still be in chaos if not for a cause, such as gravity, to bring it into an ordered form.

Come on Ghost! It's not that complicated.

@secondson said
Chaos is a term used for the concept of complete disorder and confusion. It's not a name for a person, place or thing.

If chaos is used to describe the condition of matter in some unimaginable past, and matter would still be in chaos if not for a cause, such as gravity, to bring it into an ordered form.

Come on Ghost! It's not that complicated.

Will come back shortly with some brilliant analogy or another.

@kellyjay said
A foundation of chaos to what we see now, differs how from one of design? This something you believe due physics or philosophy?

In physics and chemistry, it is rather common for order to spontaneously emerge from an initially disordered system. A simple example is the demixing of an oil-water emulsion.

@kazetnagorra said
In physics and chemistry, it is rather common for order to spontaneously emerge from an initially disordered system. A simple example is the demixing of an oil-water emulsion.

Yes, and?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I also don't believe in 'everything from nothing.'


I don't believe there ever was 'nothing.'

You believe that why?

There something in nature that gives you that belief, or is it that you don't like the
possible ramifications reality would give that would need to be answered?

You think everything always was, is, and will be, in some state or another eternally.
Yet you have great issues with God always was, is, and will be the same eternally.

@kellyjay said
Yes, and?

So to someone with a knowledge of basic physics and chemistry it will come as no surprise that ordered systems have emerged from an initially disordered state.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Will come back shortly with some brilliant analogy or another.

LOL I hope so! I'm having a heck of a time doing it by myself. 😉

@kazetnagorra said
So to someone with a knowledge of basic physics and chemistry it will come as no surprise that ordered systems have emerged from an initially disordered state.

Was that my question? Order isn't the question, I can drop several items into a
flask of water and they can sort themselves out as they float to the bottom. I was
talking about how the universe came together and how it setup its timing and so
on, simple order is just a small part of it not whole.

It goes deeper than that!

@kazetnagorra said
So to someone with a knowledge of basic physics and chemistry it will come as no surprise that ordered systems have emerged from an initially disordered state.

Not the kind of fine tuning we see in the universe today and not without intelligent intervention.

@kellyjay said
You believe that why?

The Jainist argument is very persuasive.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The Jainist argument is very persuasive.

I'm unfamiliar with it, care to share?

@kellyjay said
Was that my question? Order isn't the question, I can drop several items into a
flask of water and they can sort themselves out as they float to the bottom. I was
talking about how the universe came together and how it setup its timing and so
on, simple order is just a small part of it not whole.

It goes deeper than that!

So if it's not surprising to you that order can spontaneously emerge in nature in one case, why does it surprise you in another case?

@kellyjay said
I'm unfamiliar with it, care to share?

An eternal universe is a core belief of Jainism.

(From Wikipedia)

'Jainism does not support belief in a creator deity. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents—soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion—have always existed. All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws. It is not possible to create matter out of nothing and hence the sum total of matter in the universe remains the same (similar to law of conservation of mass). Jain text claims that the universe consists of jiva (life force or souls) and ajiva (lifeless objects). The soul of each living being is unique and uncreated and has existed since beginningless time.

The Jain theory of causation holds that a cause and its effect are always identical in nature and hence a conscious and immaterial entity like God cannot create a material entity like the universe. Furthermore, according to the Jain concept of divinity, any soul who destroys its karmas and desires achieves liberation (nirvana). A soul who destroys all its passions and desires has no desire to interfere in the working of the universe. Moral rewards and sufferings are not the work of a divine being, but a result of an innate moral order in the cosmos; a self-regulating mechanism whereby the individual reaps the fruits of his own actions through the workings of the karmas.

Through the ages, Jain philosophers have rejected and opposed the concept of creator and omnipotent God and this has resulted in Jainism being labeled as nastika darsana or atheist philosophy by the rival religious philosophies. The theme of non-creationism and absence of omnipotent God and divine grace runs strongly in all the philosophical dimensions of Jainism, including its cosmology, karma, moksa and its moral code of conduct. Jainism asserts a religious and virtuous life is possible without the idea of a creator god.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
An eternal universe is a core belief of Jainism.

(From Wikipedia)

'Jainism does not support belief in a creator deity. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents—soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion—have always existed. All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws. It is not possible to create matter ...[text shortened]... nduct. Jainism asserts a religious and virtuous life is possible without the idea of a creator god.'

"The Jain theory of causation holds that a cause and its effect are always identical in nature and hence a conscious and immaterial entity like God cannot create a material entity like the universe."

The cause and effect occur at the same time, but it isn't true about them both
being always there at the same time. I can hit a ball on a pool table, the hit will
cause the ball to move, the effect and cause are there are the same time, if I do
not hit the ball the effect isn't there.