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    07 Dec '06 09:181 edit
    First of all, I would like to clarify exactly what I object to. I object to the adamant belief in supernatural gods and the rejection of evidence which inevitably ensues. I object to the strife caused by contradicting beliefs, and the wars that follow. I do not, object to the use of the term “god” as a metaphor to nature. This metaphor does not attempt to explain natural phenomena through supernatural explanations, nor does it attempt to justify or condemn people’s actions through ecclesiastical authorities.

    Furthermore, I would like to clarify that though much of the following will use Christianity as an example, the following is not solely directed at Christians. It is directed at all religions which match the criteria given above. I use Christianity as an example because as an American I have been exposed to Christianity more than any other religion, and therefore I am more knowledgeable on Christianity than any other religion. I would also like to state that I do not claim to be an expert on any religion or the doctrine they follow; my assertions below are based principally on the observations I have made.

    Religion should not survive an elementary education, yet it does. Why? Because society grants religion an undeserved immunity to criticism. Certain ideas are labeled “holy,” and once they receive that label you are not to question them. If someone’s political views do not coincide with your own, you are allowed to argue with them, but when someone says “I’m not allowed to make my bed on Sunday,” you must respect that.

    The burden of proof lies with the theist, not the skeptic. It is not sufficient to say, “You can not disprove this, therefore this is how it is.” This idea is demonstrated by Bertrand Russell’s teapot analogy. Russell states:

    If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

    An impartial look at religion will reveal its absurdity. Unfortunately, most people are incapable of impartiality towards religion because the process of their proselytization began at their birth. Does the idea of a man being swallowed whole by a whale and being regurgitated alive three days later not strike people as ridiculous? What about the geocentric view of the universe that the bible preaches? Not only should we repudiate evolution, should we also revamp the entire theory of gravity to conform to the bible? I pray we never take such inane actions. Fundamentalists frighten me.

    Most contemporary theists classify themselves as a bit more moderate than fundamentalists. Religious moderation is a consequence of a few factors: a significant increase in the education level of the common man, and partial ignorance to one’s own scriptures. Moderates interpret parts of their religion literally, and parts of their religion figuratively so it does not openly contradict what is generally considered scientific fact. This is not inherently a bad idea. Such an interpretation does not reject facts, and continues to offer people spirituality which science can not. Religious moderation puts up a façade of being the perfect compromise, however, when put in practice, an allegorical interpretation of holy texts is not only regressive, it is also conceited.

    Fundamentalists will often view moderates as impious. Instead of excoriating such unjustifiable, obstinate opinions, religious moderation often inadvertently advocates the contrary and strengthens such view points. It appears that many fundamentalists erroneously argue that because so many people have been exposed to god that he must exist. The moderate’s belief in god affirms the fundamentalist’s feeling of superiority and righteousness. Without the plethora of moderates the fundamentalist’s belief system would slowly degenerate and be replaced with an overwhelming majority of people who decided to follow reason and logic when juxtaposed with faith alone.

    Religious moderates also follow a much more personal interpretation of holy text. You will rarely find two moderates who share all the same tenets, even if they attend the same church. Many of these moderates will insist on their beliefs as vehemently as some fundamentalists. Since almost all moderates interpret the bible differently from each other, in essence what they are saying is that they themselves have the ultimate authority in declaring how the universe works and what moral standards people should follow. This is the pinnacle of arrogance. If there are a million different metaphorical interpretations of the bible, most likely this means there are a million different flawed interpretations of the bible. Expecting others to conform to your interpretations is obtuse.

    While a figurative interpretation of religious text is more rational than a literal one, it is still dubious. This view is still partially based on faith where it is not merited. Though this faith may not dispute empirical data directly, no evidence exists to legitimize this faith; therefore one should still consider it a puerile theory at best.

    Faith, though in most cases fallacious, is perpetuated by many factors. Children are inoculated with their parents and societies’ dogmatic beliefs before maturing enough to question those conjectures. When a child has a set of beliefs ingrained in his mind, the process of separating the child with those beliefs is difficult, and in certain cases impossible. As the child gets older, he will have an emotional connection to his childhood beliefs, which will render him incapable of objectively questioning his beliefs. If he is able to look at his beliefs objectively, he may continue to live under the pretense of faith for fear of being alienated from his community. He will also see many people that he is exposed to sharing his beliefs, which will reaffirm his faith. This process is then systematically repeated over the next generation.

    My disillusionment regarding religion does not stem entirely from my incredulity towards people having faith in asinine conjectures, it also stems from the violence done in the name of religion, and from observing the extent that people are willing to go to impose their beliefs upon others.

    Numerous crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of religion, and range in magnitude from harassment and persecution of dissenters to genocide. At one time, intellectuals such as Galileo were imprisoned for advocating theories which contravened religious dogma. Slowly, the public began to embrace the era of enlightenment. As intellectuals gained favor with the public, classical methods of persecution were abandoned, only to be replaced by more acceptable methods. This cycle continues to manipulate society in modern times. While legal oppression of the intellectual is nearly obsolete, he is often heavily belittled by society for heresy. Einstein was a victim of this sort of persecution. When Einstein stated that he does not believe in the conventional God, he received many outrageous replies, such as one from the founder of the Cavalry Tabernacle Association of Oklahoma:

    Professor Einstein, I believe that every Christian in America will answer you, "We will not give up our belief in our God and his son Jesus Christ, but we invite you, if you do not believe in the God of the people of this nation, to go back where you came from." I have done everything in my power to be a blessing to Israel, and then you come along and with one statement from your blasphemous tongue, do more to hurt the cause of your people than all the efforts of the Christians who love Israel can do to stamp out anti-Semitism in our land. Professor Einstein, every Christian in America will immediately reply to you, "Take your crazy, fallacious theory of evolution and go back to Germany where you came from, or stop trying to break down the faith of a people who gave you a welcome when you were forced to flee your native land."

    Of course there are far more heinous crimes than religious persecution that are carried out in the name of religion. The most obvious example, the malicious attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, opened up Pandora’s Box. America was left in shock, and The Middle East is arguably more devastated than ever before. Sadly, the extremist terrorists who attacked the United States believed that their actions were justified by their religion. The Ku Klux Klan justified lynching through the bible. Many more examples of crimes in the name of religion exist. The evidence required to claim that religion engenders barbarism and tyranny is pervasive.

    In America, religion plays an indisputable role in both domestic and foreign politics. Though America is a leading nation in a civilized era, I find America’s aversion to putting a non-Christian in the oval office unfathomable. There are certain laws passed whose only basis lie in Christianity. Other laws, again only justified by Christian tenets, prevent the progressiveness that America strives for. Opposition to abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research almost lies solely with the religious right.
  2. Joined
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    07 Dec '06 09:19
    Christian influence is also evident in the rhetoric George W. Bush uses in his attempts to justify the war in Iraq, such as when he calls any Iraqis opposed to the American forces “evil-doers.” He even goes as far as saying that god told him “go and end the tyranny in Iraq.” Many people interpret his reference to “evil-doers” as referring to all Muslims, and end up mocking Islam as a whole, furthering the already increasing estrangement between Muslims and Christians. This only leads to more violence. The reason behind going into this war remains in question, but it is steadily spiraling into a war based on ideological differences.

    History teaches us that the most virulent situations rise from ideological differences, not from a struggle over land, resources, or other tangibles. What possesses a man to arm himself with the branch of a tree and a few stones, and charge at a tank? Only quintessential hatred will drive a man to such an extreme, and this type of hatred comes from religious discord. People will do anything to assert the validity of their religion. Too many men have died in the name of religion, and these unnecessary deaths will continue until people realize that religion is fictitious. The extent of influence faith has exerted throughout history is appalling, especially considering that many times facts are ignored for faith.

    In order to ensure the continued existence of humanity in a nuclear era religion must be subdued. History evinces religion as the catalyst to the bitterest wars. Though this has always been an inane peculiarity of human culture, in the past it was tolerable as the destruction was limited to a locality. However, if a religious war were waged between two nuclear powers the result would be Armageddon. The destruction would be pandemic, quite possibly resulting in the annihilation of the human race. Ending religion will not nullify the inexorable threat of nuclear war; however, it will discernibly reduce the possibility of such a war because nothing in human history has been as divisive as religion. On nearly every other issue the possibility of compromise exists; religion is absolute.

    However, it is religion’s attempt to cross into the realm of science which I find most aggravating. It does this mainly two ways: through the legal system, and through the classroom. Recently, in America, there has been a movement to teach “creation science” in science classes in the public school system. Creationism seeks to teach alternative explanations to currently accepted scientific theories by introducing the idea of a deity. It is highly grotesque to try to pass creationism off as a science. First of all, creationism attempts to explain natural phenomena through supernatural causes, therefore it can not, by definition, be a science. Science is based on palpable evidence rather than blind faith. No evidence exists to substantiate the ludicrous arguments purported by creationists, while a myriad of evidence directly refutes them. It is fatuous to controvert observable fact on the basis of blind faith. Furthermore, though many proponents of creationism emphatically claim otherwise, creationism is strongly influenced by the Bible. America generally considers the intervention of the state in matters of faith illegal. Teaching creationism in school would transgress this principle. Most importantly, teaching creationism at school would misinform the minds of impressionable children, and would be horrifically regressive. Over the next few paragraphs, I would like to briefly address the major ideas behind creationism.

    The main claim of creationism asserts that life did not evolve on Earth by natural selection, but that a divine entity designed and created life in its present state. Creationists generally mean common descent when they use the term ‘evolution.’ Creationists insist that their claim is as valid as evolution because evolution “is just a theory,” and since it is just a theory it should be removed from class, or all opposing theories should be given equal time in the classroom. The problem here arises from their interpretation of the word ‘theory.’ In American vernacular the term insinuates uncertainty; in the context of science the term is used to describe a group of propositions that explain a natural phenomenon. Gravity, for instance, is a natural phenomenon. There have been many proposed theories to explain the phenomenon, such as Newton’s classical theory, or Einstein’s general theory of relativity, however the fact that two massive bodies will attract each other has remained constant. Similarly, common descent is a natural phenomenon. The theory of evolution explains this phenomenon. It is possible that one day our current theory may be replaced by something else; however that will not change the fact that species are related by common descent.

    As an aside, I would like to point out that the current theory that explains gravity has far more opposition in the scientific community than the theory of evolution. Why, then, are creationists not discontent with it being taught in the classroom?

    Many people who argue against evolution cite a “missing link,” fossilized evidence which should be a requirement of proof according to some creationists, in the lineage of the human race. I have heard this argument many times. I find it somewhat ironic that though many people will use this as a key point to their argument, this missing link remains esoteric in the sense that no one seems to know exactly what, when, or where this missing link is. This is a moot argument, however. If a missing link exists, it does not refute the theory of evolution. Evolution does not entail a direct fossilized record from ancestor to descendant. Fossilized evidence is contingent on the geological forces of the earth, and is coincidental when found. It supports the theory of evolution. Fossilized evidence is not a requirement for ascertaining the theory’s validity.

    Another central argument of many creationists is that the Earth and universe are between 6,000 and 10,000 years old. These creationists generally have a literal view on the bible’s historical accuracy. There is, of course, no real basis for these claims. They are off by a factor of approximately a million. It would be equivalent of saying that San Francisco is 30 feet from New York.

    There are a multitude of methods for measuring the age of the Earth, the most common being radiometric dating. This method approximates the age of the earth at 4.5 billion years, along with other independent methods of dating. Creationists often question the legitimacy of radioactive dating. They base their doubt on relatively few examples. Any tool when misused will give inaccurate results, which is generally the case for the basis of creationist’s claims. The fact that independent radiometric techniques, along with other techniques such as Milankovitch cycles, luminescence dating method, and relative dating methods are consistent should be apodictic evidence that should lay to rest any doubt on the validity of radiometric dating.

    Since the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years old, it logically follows that the age of the universe is also greater than 4.5 billion years old. This has also been proved by various methods.

    Religion is a valid expression of human emotion. Unfortunately, the majority of the people want to aggrandize it into literal truth, which it is not. Such aggrandizement is a threat to the progressiveness of society, a threat to the human species itself, and blinds people from seeing the naturally beautiful truth. At one point in time, religion was not nearly as harmful as it is today, but in the age of reason, religion is antiquated, and does not deserve a place in modern society.
  3. Joined
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    07 Dec '06 13:181 edit
    Can I go on a rant as well?

    My objection to those who attack theism.

    We are nicely and neatly grouped together in one category and subsequently labeled. All theists must renounce science and evolution and claim that Genesis is in conflict with such findings when, in fact, that is not necessarily the case. Could evolution be nothing more than an extension of creation? Heritic, burn him at that stake!!!!!!!!

    Religion is often seen as the sole evil in the world that is responsible for war and conflict. So if there were no religion, we would have peace in the world. The problem with this logic is that if there be no God, man is the creator of all religion to use for his own devices. The problem then shifts from religion, in general, to the inward parts of man and his apparent need to manipulate and coerce others via a mechanism such as religion. Therefore, the problem in regards to world peace is really man and not generalized religion. In fact, anything can be used for evil no matter how pure and just it may be unto itself to begin with. Do you think that if religion vanished that he would be at peace? Do you think that man could not create other venues to coerse war and conflict? If you do not then you do not understand the nature of man.

    Religion should not survive an elementary education? This is another objection to those who scoff at the religious. Such arrogance and pompous retoric is distasteful to say the least. You would think that political correctness would cover those who are religious like those who are of a different race yet the same rules do not seem to apply. It is OK to bash those of faith and ridicule them as being ignorant, unintelligent, and/or close minded. If you believe this then why to you refer to Einstien in your rant? After all, he believed in a God.

    The burden of proof lies with the theist? No. I have no burden to prove God to anyone. I leave that to God. If he does not wish to prove himself to you what business is it of mine to prove him to you? I think you will find that faith has little to do with proving something exists. You may believe that I exist, but do you or would you place any faith in me? You see many Biblical figures believed there to be a God and had seen many miracles performed by God yet lost faith in him. Therefore, God is not interestsed in "proving" himself to you. What he is after is faith, because it is faith that makes interaction between the Creator and the created productive. If you do not place your faith in me, what productive interaction can occur between us?

    Another beef I have with nay sayers is that those who do not believe in him cannot understand why believers can believe some of the proported miracles mentioned in the Bible. Does this not strike you as strange? You somehow think that it may be OK to give credence to the existence of God, thereby giving credence to the supernatural, but then saying that one cannot give credence to the existence of supernatural miracles. I agree that if there be no God, then such miracles do not and have not occured, however, if there be a God then such miracles could, and indeed, must have occured. After all, creation would then be nothing more than a long list of other miracles that God has been a part of.

    To sum up, I do not think your rant is in any way attacking relgion in general nor is it necessarily attacking all who claim to be Christian. I think your beef is with fundamentalist Christians of which I happen to be one. You use such people as George Bush to stereotype and demean us. What if I were to use Stalin to describe those who do not believe in God? You also continue to attempt to lump all fundamentalists into one ugly group as believing and thinking in the same way. I can tell you that you are wrong. For example, I have no desire for a theocracy. I have no desire to attack science in the classroom and demand that students believe in God. I have no belief that creation occured in six literal days.

    I think that you will find that labeling and stereotyping any group of people as being "the problem" is what creates conficts in general. Are you not doing the same here?
  4. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    07 Dec '06 15:02
    Originally posted by whodey
    Can I go on a rant as well?

    My objection to those who attack theism.

    We are nicely and neatly grouped together in one category and subsequently labeled. All theists must renounce science and evolution and claim that Genesis is in conflict with such findings when, in fact, that is not necessarily the case. Could evolution be nothing more than an exten ...[text shortened]... s being "the problem" is what creates conficts in general. Are you not doing the same here?
    Einstein did not believe in the sort of God you believe in.

    The burden of proof is on anyone who advances any positive substantial claim, including the claim that God exists.
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    07 Dec '06 15:092 edits
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Einstein did not believe in the sort of God you believe in.

    The burden of proof is on anyone who advances any positive substantial claim, including the claim that God exists.
    But those who offer a negative substantial claim have no obligation to prove what they are saying? This must then be your position and I am sure you have reasoned this out to work for you somehow. All I can say is you are more than welcomed to it. You take the negative and I'll take the positive. May you find yours as rewarding. As I said before, I have nothing to prove to anyone.
  6. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    07 Dec '06 17:13
    Originally posted by whodey
    All theists must renounce science and evolution
    But you do.
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    07 Dec '06 17:44
    Originally posted by mjordan2nd
    I use Christianity as an example because as an American I have been exposed to Christianity more than any other religion, and therefore I am more knowledgeable on Christianity than any other religion.
    Given what follows, that isn't saying much.
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    07 Dec '06 17:49
    Originally posted by mjordan2nd
    Religious moderates also follow a much more personal interpretation of holy text.
    Perhaps you've heard of a group of Christians called the "Catholics"? You know, they only constitute about 60% of worldwide Christians (and about 25% of American Christians). And they do not believe in a literalistic reading of Scripture (haven't done so right from the early centuries) and do not follow a "much more personal interpretation of holy text".
  9. London
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    07 Dec '06 17:52
    Originally posted by mjordan2nd
    While a figurative interpretation of religious text is more rational than a literal one, it is still dubious. This view is still partially based on faith where it is not merited. Though this faith may not dispute empirical data directly, no evidence exists to legitimize this faith; therefore one should still consider it a puerile theory at best.
    Now that is one of the most conceited statements I've heard. Faith does not only not dispute empirical data, in many causes it is supported by it. Ever hear of four historical texts called the "Gospels" and other early Christian literature?
  10. London
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    07 Dec '06 17:54
    Originally posted by mjordan2nd
    Christian influence is also evident in the rhetoric George W. Bush uses in his attempts to justify the war in Iraq, such as when he calls any Iraqis opposed to the American forces “evil-doers.” He even goes as far as saying that god told him “go and end the tyranny in Iraq.” Many people interpret his reference to “evil-doers” as referring to all Muslims, ...[text shortened]... ut in the age of reason, religion is antiquated, and does not deserve a place in modern society.
    Religion is the root of all evil; yeah, we get it. Wasn't Christianity behind the 6M Jews and 2M Poles who got killed in German concentration camps? And wasn't Islam at the heart of the USSR and its own massacres?
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    07 Dec '06 18:054 edits
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    But you do.
    No I do not as I once did. I do not dispute the findings of science, rather, I view it as studying how the laws of the physical universe interact with creation. Therefore, all that will be revealed by science will be what has been created in the tangible universe as well as the laws governing them, nothing more. I just so happen to believe that there is more to life what extends past the confines of science and what can be put to the scientific method. If science is all that is needed in our lives that is all we would require. Science is merely a peice of the puzzle.
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    07 Dec '06 18:122 edits
    Originally posted by mjordan2nd
    First of all, I would like to clarify exactly what I object to. I object to the adamant belief in supernatural gods and the rejection of evidence which inevitably ensues. I object to the strife caused by contradicting beliefs, and the wars that follow. I do not, object to the use of the term “god” as a metaphor to nature. This metaphor does not attempt to abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research almost lies solely with the religious right.
    EDIT: nevermind.
  13. London
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    07 Dec '06 18:25
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    EDIT: nevermind.
    Why?
  14. Standard memberspruce112358
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    07 Dec '06 21:13
    Originally posted by mjordan2nd
    First of all, I would like to clarify exactly what I object to. I object to the adamant belief in supernatural gods and the rejection of evidence which inevitably ensues. I object to the strife caused by contradicting beliefs, and the wars that follow. I do not, object to the use of the term “god” as a metaphor to nature. This metaphor does not attempt to ...[text shortened]... abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research almost lies solely with the religious right.
    I guess I find objecting to religion almost as humorous as objecting to Brussels sprouts.

    Do you object that they exist? That other people eat them?

    If you don't like religion -- don't partake. It's as easy as that. If you like a particular religion -- adopt it. If you like parts of several religions -- adopt those. If religion as a whole doesn't agree with you, stay away.

    To say that "religion is harmful" or "religion is wrong" or "God doesn't exist" is ridiculous.
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    07 Dec '06 21:38
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Now that is one of the most conceited statements I've heard. Faith does not only not dispute empirical data, in many causes it is supported by it. Ever hear of four historical texts called the "Gospels" and other early Christian literature?
    Classing the Gospels as empirical data is slightly dodgy, as they were written by humans. To be honest, they provide no evidence for a God. Rather they are more a set of, as you say, historical texts/ stories, written by man, not god.
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