Naoh's Ark or hoax?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Yes i did.

So it all boils down to who you believe, no?

Originally posted by whodey
So it all boils down to who you believe, no?

As i said, there are survivors of the holocaust who are alive today who can give first hand testimony of what actually happenned.

The evidence for Jesus is 2,000yrs old, mainly written by anonymous authors, copied into different languages, bits of text added here and there by unknown people. And more importantly none of the texts were written by people who were alive during Jesus lifetime (although some people would disagree), it's all second hand information.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
As i said, there are survivors of the holocaust who are alive today who can give first hand testimony of what actually happenned.

The evidence for Jesus is 2,000yrs old, mainly written by anonymous authors, copied into different languages, bits of text added here and there by unknown people. And more importantly none of the texts were written by peopl ...[text shortened]... during Jesus lifetime (although some people would disagree), it's all second hand information.

Josephus? Was he not alive during the time of Christ? Was he not the author? In fact, he was not even a Christian.

Originally posted by whodey
Josephus? Was he not alive during the time of Christ? Was he not the author? In fact, he was not even a Christian.

Jesus died anywhere between 26-36 AD.

Josephus dates are 37-100 AD.

I think we can say he wasn't alive during Jesus time.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Jesus died anywhere between 26-36 AD.

Josephus dates are 37-100 AD.

I think we can say he wasn't alive during Jesus time.

Josephus was alive until approximately 100 AD. You are alive now. I think we can fairly successfully eliminate any commentary you may have to offer on the subject as suspect, at best.

Egypt Had writing in 3200BC. They also had a calendar of 360 days a year. This means that they were off by a year and a half every 100 years. We have continues writing from 3200Bc were does the flood fit into this.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I don't believe Jesus Christ existed, but i believe it's pretty feasible Jesus of Nazareth existed. Do you equate me with a holocaust denier?

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I don't believe Jesus Christ existed, but i believe it's pretty feasible Jesus of Nazareth existed. Do you equate me with a holocaust denier?
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Yes. I'm afraid I would say in principle you are like today's Holocaust deniers.

There use to be a saying "The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz."

The jist of the proverb is that some German people find the Holocaust so horrible an affront to German character that they ironically will never forgive the Jews that it happened to them.

In a similar way, as an atheist you simply HAVE to deny history's most outstanding figure demonstrating the reality of God.

You go beyond never forgiving Jesus for testifying that God (proclaimed His Father) is a reality. Better yet, you deny that any such person ever existed.

Originally posted by Thomas Lavery
Egypt Had writing in 3200BC. They also had a calendar of 360 days a year. This means that they were off by a year and a half every 100 years. We have continues writing from 3200Bc were does the flood fit into this.

The Egyptians had an amazing civilization. It lasted so long that they eventually had their own archeologists digging into their own national past.

The Egyptians also told us more about themselves then any other ancient culture. The writings on the tombs of kings reveal more to historians about everyday Egyptian life than the artifiacts left by any other ancient civilization.

I use to wonder why there is no apparent record of the dealings of Moses with an Egyptian Pharoah in thier history. Recently, I listened to many lectures by a leading Egyptologist on Egyptian civilization.

He is the only person to have duplicated the process of mummification. He is a great lecturer, one of the best I have ever heard in any field.

I found one thing he said very interesting. The Egyptians were so proud that their writings on their tombs usually only speak of accomplishments and things to boast of. It is quite out of character for any king to admit defeat or humiliation. He said that even when the king's army was in retreat they left the record to appear that it was a victory but only closer to home. They did not like to leave any record of anything embaressing to Egyptian pride. Often histories which latter kings found embaressing they destroyed the evidence of the record.

So we have instances of names scratched out, details destroyed, etc from ancient Egyptian tombs.

The bottom line is that we should not expect that ancient Egypt would leave a record of something so humuliating to their national pride as the Exodus of Hebrews as told in the Bible. Possibly, it could be figured out from evidences.

For instance, the record of the woman Pharoah was all but erased from their tomb histories because it would be embaressing for Egypt to admit a female Pharoah. But they did have one.

Originally posted by jaywill
The Egyptians had an amazing civilization. It lasted so long that they eventually had their own archeologists digging into their own national past.

The Egyptians also told us more about themselves then any other ancient culture. The writings on the tombs of kings reveal more to historians about everyday Egyptian life than the artifiacts left by any other ...[text shortened]... ies because it would be embaressing for Egypt to admit a female Pharoah. But they did have one.

Does this mean that you agree that there was no global flooding, as you refer to the existance of the Egyptians before, during, and after the flood according to the bible flood myth?

Originally posted by whodey
I'm sure many of you have heard the latest. There appears to be yet another claim that Noah'a Ark has been discovered.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/

Of course, as the article points out this has not been verified by the scientific community. However, if this is a hoax, it is ...[text shortened]... il in the coffin, once and for all, of all those who scoff at the literal nature of scripture.

i would love to see fundamentalists use isotope dating to date that wood. the irony would be great

Originally posted by Thomas Lavery
Egypt Had writing in 3200BC. They also had a calendar of 360 days a year. This means that they were off by a year and a half every 100 years. We have continues writing from 3200Bc were does the flood fit into this.

I suppose it would mean that the flood occurred before 3200BC. You have to remember, before Noah's time there was NOTHING written in the Bible about Egypt. Of course, that does not mean that there was no civilization there during the time of Noah. In fact, the Sphynx is the oldest artifact in all of Egypt and associated with the "Old Kingdom". One of the things of interest is that the Sphynx had signs of erosion. Why? It would have to mean that the climate was MUCH different duing the old kingdom than any recorded record. At one time, the area must have been lush and green.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i would love to see fundamentalists use isotope dating to date that wood. the irony would be great

Not all fundamentalists believe that Creation took a literal 7 days. I think I have talked at great length about this before, but if you would like I could review these beliefs. Lets just suffice it to say that fundamentalists are split between Old Earth and New Earth creationists. I happen to be an Old Earth Creationist.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i would love to see fundamentalists use isotope dating to date that wood. the irony would be great

If C14 shows that it couldn't be the ark of Noah then they dismiss the C14 method altogether, until they use it again to prove another biblical thing.

"C14 is science when it goes my way. C14 is no more than guessings when it doesn't." - Words from an unknown fundamentalist.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Does this mean that you agree that there was no global flooding, as you refer to the existance of the Egyptians before, during, and after the flood according to the bible flood myth?

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Does this mean that you agree that there was no global flooding, as you refer to the existance of the Egyptians before, during, and after the flood according to the bible flood myth?
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I didn't say that. My speaking of Egyptian records was related to the Exodus not to Noah's ark.

The idea that we can pinpoint the number of years ago the flood was is based on the chronology of one clergyman named Ussher. Be Ussher did his calculations based upon biblical geneologies. But the Jews made skips in their geneologies. The links between people were important, but not to the point that there were never any gaps. So maybe Ussher us incorrect in his counting up years.

I have no idea how long ago the flood was. Perhap it was much longer ago then Ussher calculated and modern Young Earthers assume.

As for the extent of the flood, my present belief is that it need not necessarily be global in our modern sense. The Bible speaks of the Queen of the Ethiopians coming "from the ends of the earth" to hear the wisdom of Solomon. "The ends of the earth", Ethiopia in Northern Africa compared to Jerusalem, should be understoond in the concept of people living then.

We are told that "Ceasar Augustus" instituted a census "to be taken of all the inhabited earth" (Luke 2:1). I don't understand this to mean that Ceasar Augustus counted the Eskimos, the American Natives, and the Chinese, South African peoples, and the Aboriginies in Australia.

The flood of Noah could judge the people and the area where they then lived. I do not like to get distracted with the global / local issue too much. Judged is judged. Flooded is flooded. If only eight people were saved from a greater population of the people then living, it makes little difference whether it was global or local. It was everyone was judged except for the 8 saved people on the ark.

Anyway, Jesus Christ took the story seriously. So I think I should take the story seriously. The integrity of Jesus is to me beyond questioning.

Maybe it was much longer ago then Ussher calculates via his studiy of the geneologies. Maybe, the world as the people then living together knew, was flooded. I do take seriously that only 8 human beings survived. I don't think there were other humans who knew nothing about the flood and lived through it.

Originally posted by jaywill
As for the extent of the flood, my present belief is that it need not necessarily be global in our modern sense.

So when fundamentalists are talking about "Global Flooding because it is what the Holy Bible says" you say that the fundamentals are wrong. It fits only if we dismiss the beliefs of the fundamentalists? If we twist the words of the bible a little?

There was no global flooding? Just a local one? But not one that can put the remains of the ark at MtArarat at an elevation of 4000 meters? So the storymakers in the bible made a hen out of a feather?

Do we agree that the myths in the bible are not more than myths?