1. Standard memberNyxie
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    15 Mar '05 00:45
    Neither the Leader of the entire Roman Catholic Church nor the leaders of the Church in Germany ever ordered the leader of the NAZI AXIS Nations and Mastermind of the Holocaust of 6 million Jews 4 million other innocent victims to stop calling himself a "Catholic".


    Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?

    Nyxie
  2. Paonia, Colorado
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    15 Mar '05 00:52
    As a matter of fact a Catholic bishop at the Vatican facilitated the escape to South America of many Nazis.
  3. Felicific Forest
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    15 Mar '05 01:323 edits
    Originally posted by Nyxie
    Neither the Leader of the entire Roman Catholic Church nor the leaders of the Church in Germany ever ordered the leader of the NAZI AXIS Nations and Mastermind of the Holocaust of 6 million Jews 4 million other innocent victims to stop callin ...[text shortened]... someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?

    Nyxie
    MIT BRENNENDER SORGE
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
    ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH (1937).



    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html


    I'll give you some quotes, there is of course much much more, from this encyclical written in 1937 (!).

    "The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination. In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the "enemy" of Holy Scripture - oversowed the cockle of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church. They, and they alone with their accomplices, silent or vociferous, are today responsible, should the storm of religious war, instead of the rainbow of peace, blacken the German skies."

    "7. Take care, Venerable Brethren, that above all, faith in God, the first and irreplaceable foundation of all religion, be preserved in Germany pure and unstained. The believer in God is not he who utters the name in his speech, but he for whom this sacred word stands for a true and worthy concept of the Divinity. Whoever identifies, by pantheistic confusion, God and the universe, by either lowering God to the dimensions of the world, or raising the world to the dimensions of God, is not a believer in God. Whoever follows that so-called pre-Christian Germanic conception of substituting a dark and impersonal destiny for the personal God, denies thereby the Wisdom and Providence of God who "Reacheth from end to end mightily, and ordereth all things sweetly" (Wisdom viii. 1). Neither is he a believer in God.

    8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds."

    "9. Beware, Venerable Brethren, of that growing abuse, in speech as in writing, of the name of God as though it were a meaningless label, to be affixed to any creation, more or less arbitrary, of human speculation. Use your influence on the Faithful, that they refuse to yield to this aberration. Our God is the Personal God, supernatural, omnipotent, infinitely perfect, one in the Trinity of Persons, tri-personal in the unity of divine essence, the Creator of all existence. Lord, King and ultimate Consummator of the history of the world, who will not, and cannot, tolerate a rival God by His side."

    "...... to put a stop to the blasphemies, which, in words and pictures, are multiplying like the sands of the desert; to encounter the obstinacy and provocations of those who deny, despise and hate God, ...... "


    " ..... Nothing but ignorance and pride could blind one to the treasures hoarded in the Old Testament."


    "16. Whoever wishes to see banished from church and school the Biblical history and the wise doctrines of the Old Testament, blasphemes the name of God, blasphemes the Almighty's plan of salvation, and makes limited and narrow human thought the judge of God's designs over the history of the world: he denies his faith in the true Christ, ..... "

    "21. In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State."

    " ..... If the oppressor offers one the Judas bargain of apostasy he can only, at the cost of every worldly sacrifice, answer with Our Lord: "Begone, Satan! For it is written: The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and Him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. iv. 10). And turning to the Church, he shall say: "Thou, my mother since my infancy, the solace of my life and advocate at my death, may my tongue cleave to my palate if, yielding to worldly promises or threats, I betray the vows of my baptism." As to those who imagine that they can reconcile exterior infidelity to one and the same Church, let them hear Our Lord's warning: - "He that shall deny me before men shall be denied before the angels of God" (Luke xii. 9)."

    "33. Thousands of voices ring into your ears a Gospel which has not been revealed by the Father of Heaven. Thousands of pens are wielded in the service of a Christianity, which is not of Christ. Press and wireless daily force on you productions hostile to the Faith and to the Church, impudently aggressive against whatever you should hold venerable and sacred."

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    Having read this Nyxie, what do you think is the best label to attach to the relations between the Roman Catholic Church and the Nazis ?

    Friendly or hostile ?

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    Nyxie: " ........... to stop calling himself a "Catholic". "


    Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?


    After reading the quotes from the encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge" written in the year 1937 (reading the whole encyclical would of course be better still) do you think you have received a satisfactory answer to your question ?



  4. Standard memberDarfius
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    15 Mar '05 01:44
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    MIT BRENNENDER SORGE
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
    ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH (1937).



    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html


    I'll give you some quotes, there is of course much much more, from this encyclical written in 1937 (!).

    The experiences of these last y ...[text shortened]... e better still) do you think you have received a satisfactory answer to your question ?



    Not to be rude, ivan, but do you honestly think the Catholic church has never forged a document?

    Christians should judge by actions, not words.
  5. Standard memberNyxie
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    15 Mar '05 01:49
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Not to be rude, ivan, but do you honestly think the Catholic church has never forged a document?

    Christians should judge by actions, not words.
    I actually find myself agreeing with darfius. The actions of the catholic church is what I call into question, not their words.

    Nyxie

  6. Felicific Forest
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    15 Mar '05 01:54
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Not to be rude, ivan, but do you honestly think the Catholic church has never forged a document?

    Christians should judge by actions, not words.

    The document was written in 1937 and published in 1937 for everybody to read.

    Darfius: Not to be rude, ivan, but do you honestly think the Catholic church has never forged a document?

    Please, prove this severe accusation.
  7. Felicific Forest
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    15 Mar '05 01:57
    Originally posted by Nyxie
    I actually find myself agreeing with darfius. The actions of the catholic church is what I call into question, not their words.

    Nyxie


    Could you please answer my questions in my post which was an answer to your question raised in your first post:

    Nyxie: " ........ to stop calling himself a "Catholic".

    Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?"
  8. Standard memberDarfius
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    15 Mar '05 02:03
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    The document was written in 1937 and published in 1937 for everybody to read.

    Darfius: Not to be rude, ivan, but do you honestly think the Catholic church has never forged a document?

    Please, prove this severe accusation.
    If I found one, it wouldn't be a good forgery, now would it? But Catholicism's history speaks for itself.
  9. Felicific Forest
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    15 Mar '05 02:09
    Originally posted by Darfius
    If I found one, it wouldn't be a good forgery, now would it? But Catholicism's history speaks for itself.
    Darfius: "If I found one, it wouldn't be a good forgery, now would it?"

    You're just having a big mouth, Dear D.


    Darfius: " .... But Catholicism's history speaks for itself."

    It does ? It is a history of forgery ?

    What did they forge in your opinion ?
  10. Standard memberDarfius
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    15 Mar '05 02:11
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Darfius: "If I found one, it wouldn't be a good forgery, now would it?"

    You're just having a big mouth, Dear D.


    Darfius: " .... But Catholicism's history speaks for itself."

    It does ? It is a history of forgery ?

    What did they forge in your opinion ?
    I'm referring to the Inquisition, Crusades, helping Nazis, molesting little boys and covering it up, keeping the Bible from the common man, and saying Jesus' sacrifice is not enough, and that we must perform good works to make up the difference.

    Who is your loyalty to, ivan; Catholicism or Jesus Christ?
  11. Felicific Forest
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    15 Mar '05 02:17
    Originally posted by Darfius
    I'm referring to the Inquisition, Crusades, helping Nazis, molesting little boys and covering it up, keeping the Bible from the common man, and saying Jesus' sacrifice is not enough, and that we must perform good works to make up the difference.

    Who is your loyalty to, ivan; Catholicism or Jesus Christ?

    This is like reading Rwingett's comments on the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe the two of you could get together as I said before.

    All the cliché's are there ....

    Have you read the above mentioned encyclical or do you think you don't have to because it is a forgery anyhow ?


  12. Felicific Forest
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    15 Mar '05 02:19
    Originally posted by Darfius
    I'm referring to the Inquisition, Crusades, helping Nazis, molesting little boys and covering it up, keeping the Bible from the common man, and saying Jesus' sacrifice is not enough, and that we must perform good works to make up the difference.

    Who is your loyalty to, ivan; Catholicism or Jesus Christ?
    Darfius: "Who is your loyalty to, ivan; Catholicism or Jesus Christ?"


    Who is your loyalty to Darfius, marriage or your wife ?
  13. Standard memberNyxie
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    15 Mar '05 02:20
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    Could you please answer my questions in my post which was an answer to your question raised in your first post:

    Nyxie: " ........ to stop calling himself a "Catholic".

    Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?"
    I don't think I have recieved a satisfactory answer, no. I am not saying the document is false as darfius is, what I'm saying is that it was'nt upheld. Why was it not enforced/upheld?

    Nyxie

    In 1933, Archbishop Eugenio Pacelli (the future Pope Pius XII) and then Papal ambassador or "Nuncio" to Germany worked out a compromise with Hitler called the "Reich Concordat," in which the Catholic Church would keep its own members in line and out of political matters, in exchange for Hitler staying out of matters relating to "the celestial sphere".
  14. Standard memberNyxie
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    15 Mar '05 02:23
    http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/RC_nytimes.html


    Nyxie
  15. Standard memberDarfius
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    15 Mar '05 02:29
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Darfius: "Who is your loyalty to, ivan; Catholicism or Jesus Christ?"


    Who is your loyalty to Darfius, marriage or your wife ?
    Your analogy is poor. I would have to agree the Catholic Church is the true Church, which I shall not.

    Now, is your loyalty to the Catholic Church or Jesus Christ?
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