Nazi Catholics were not excommunicated

Originally posted by Nyxie
I don't think I have recieved a satisfactory answer, no. I am not saying the document is false as darfius is, what I'm saying is that it was'nt upheld. Why was it not enforced/upheld?

Nyxie

In 1933, Archbishop Eugenio Pacelli (the fu ...[text shortened]... tler staying out of matters relating to "the celestial sphere".

If you read the Encyclical (why don't you by the way ? It is an important historical document.), you can read that this very issue is being raised. You can read how the Nazi's handled this treaty, concordat, with the Holy See.


What do you mean by "Why was it not enforced/upheld" ? I think the content is cristalclear towards those who follow the Führer. They cannot call themselves Christians anymore. That was your question in your first post. I answered it by providing the relevant document written in 1937, two years before the second world war began.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
If you read the Encyclical (why don't you by the way ? It is an important historical document.), you can read that this very issue is being raised. You can read how the Nazi's handled this treaty, concordat, with the Holy See.


What do you mean by "Why was it not enforced/upheld" ? I think the content is cristalclear towards those who follow the Füh ...[text shortened]... ot call themselves Christians anymore. That was your question in your first post. I answered it.

I'm not disagreeing with the content of the document.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/RC_nytimes.html


Nyxie

If you could produce the necessary official Church documents I would be happy to comment on them.

Originally posted by Nyxie
I'm not disagreeing with the content of the document.

Nyxie

I see.

Originally posted by Darfius
Your analogy is poor. I would have to agree the Catholic Church is the true Church, which I shall not.

Now, is your loyalty to the Catholic Church or Jesus Christ?

As I pointed out with my example of marriage and wife, your question presents a false dichotomy.


EDIT: Have you read the above mentioned encyclical, or at least the quotes I gave, or do you think you don't have to because it is a forgery anyhow ?

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob37.html

"Hitler's Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933).

Although Hitler was determined to undermine, if not entirely destroy, the influence of Christianity in Germany, he could hardly proceed in a provocatively confrontational manner against the two main religious denominations--Protestant and Catholic. His problem with the Catholic Church, however, derived from the allegiance both the Catholic hierarchy and the laity owed to the dictates of the Pope. And since Catholics represented some one-third of the population, Hitler perforce proceeded with caution in his ultimate goal to bring the Church to heel. Thus, the formal agreement of July 1933, the Concordat with the Vatican, was an interim step on this path--enough to lull the Church into acquiescence of the regime while leaving him the option, which he used, to step up intimidation and persecution of its members as the opportunity afforded."



How the Nazis handled and betrayed the concordat with the Holy See during the years between 1933 and 1937 can be read in the Encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge".

Originally posted by Nyxie
Neither the Leader of the entire Roman Catholic Church nor the leaders of the Church in Germany ever ordered the leader of the NAZI AXIS Nations and Mastermind of the Holocaust of 6 million Jews 4 million other innocent victims to stop calling himself a "Catholic".


Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?

Nyxie

I know that Hitler was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic, but can anyone verify whether he was a practicing Catholic in any way as an adult? Did he go to Mass or receive the sacraments? Did he ever make public statements saying he was a Catholic?

Originally posted by no1marauder
I know that Hitler was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic, but can anyone verify whether he was a practicing Catholic in any way as an adult? Did he go to Mass or receive the sacraments? Did he ever make public statements saying he was a Catholic?

.... and would you believe the words of the greatest criminal that ever appeared on the face of the earth ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe

.... and would you believe the words of the greatest criminal that ever appeared on the face of the earth ?

Of course not; but I was responding to Nyxie's post that criticized the Church for not "stopping him from calling himself a Catholic". Did he, in fact, do that in public?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Of course not; but I was responding to Nyxie's post that criticized the Church for not "stopping him from calling himself a Catholic". Did he, in fact, do that in public?

I'm not sure whether he called himself a Catholic or not, but here are some excerpts from the folowing site:

http://kevin.davnet.org/articles/table.html
The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practises a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect. It was a world enlightened by the idea of tolerance. Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its key-note is intolerance.
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature.

Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.[p. 51]

Firstly, in this way the authority of the State would be vitiated by the fact of the intervention of a third power concerning which it is impossible to say how long it would remain reliable. In the case of the Anglican Church, this objection does not arise, for England knows she can depend on her Church. But what about the Catholic Church? Wouldn't we be running the risk of her one day going into reverse after having put herself at the service of the State solely in order to safeguard her power? If one day the State's policy ceased to suit Rome or the clergy, the priests would turn against the State, as they are doing now. History provides examples that should make us careful.

So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. A slow death has something comforting about The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

So much for Christianity. However, he did not declare himself to be an atheist, but rather "religious deep inside." What perverted religon that was, maybe only he knew for sure.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Of course not; but I was responding to Nyxie's post that criticized the Church for not "stopping him from calling himself a Catholic". Did he, in fact, do that in public?

I don't know, but he certainly presented himself as a believer during his first years in power and later. He wanted the support of the masses. If you want that you have to present yourself as one of them, as a Christian. If you study National-Socialism though, you must reach the inevitable conclusion that Hitler was as anti-Christian as much as he was anti-Semitic. He didn't get the chance to prove it conclusively in practise however. He was stopped by the greatest military operation in history.

Originally posted by vistesd
I'm not sure whether he called himself a Catholic or not, but here are some excerpts from the folowing site:

http://kevin.davnet.org/articles/table.html
The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion ...[text shortened]... ther "religious deep inside." What perverted religon that was, maybe only he knew for sure.

This quote and others supposedly supporting Hitler's anti-Christian views are taken from Hitler's Table Talk, a supposed stenographic record of his private conversations heavily edited by Martin Boormann. There are good reasons for regarding this "record" as dubious as Hitler is far more critical of religion in it then anywhere else in his writings or recorded conversations. For a article doubting the veracity of this record, see http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm.

Up untill he was 24 years old that I know of. Near his death he proclaimed to be an athiest. His view on using the church can best be stated thus :

"We can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice… comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas. It has recognized quite correctly that its power of resistance does not lie in its lesser or greater adaptation to the scientific findings of the moment, which in reality are always fluctuating, but rather in rigidly holding to dogmas once established, for it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of faith. And so it stands today more firmly than ever."

Addendum :

Once Hitler assumed power, he signed a Concordat, or agreement, with the Catholic Church. Eugenio Pacelli (the man who would eventually become Pope Pius XII) was the Vatican diplomat who drew up the Concordat, and he considered it a triumph. In return for promises which Hitler increasingly broke, the Church dissolved all Catholic organizations in Germany, including the Catholic Center Party. Bishops were to take an oath of loyalty to the Nazi regime. Clergy were to see to the pastoral care of Germany's armed forces (regardless of what those armed forces did). (63)

The Concordat eliminated all Catholic resistance to Hitler; after this, the German bishops gave Hitler their full and unqualified support. A bishops' conference at Fulda, 1933, resulted in agreement with Hitler's case for extending Lebensraum, or German territory. (64) Bishop Bornewasser told a congregation of Catholic young people at Trier: "With our heads high and with firm steps we have entered the new Reich and are ready to serve it body and soul." (65) Vicar-General Steinman greeted each Berlin mass with the shout, "Heil Hitler!" (66)

Hitler, on the other hand, kept up his attack on the Church. Nazi bands stormed into the few remaining Catholic institutions, beat up Catholic youths and arrested Catholic officials. The Vatican was dismayed, but it did not protest. (67) In some instances, it was hard to tell if the Church supported its own persecution. Hitler muzzled the independent Catholic press (about 400 daily papers in 1933) and subordinated it to Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment. Yet soon the Catholic Press was doing more than what the Nazis required of it -- for example, coordinating their Nazi propaganda to prepare the people for the 1940 offensive against the West. (68) Throughout the war, the Catholic press would remain one of the Third Reich's best disseminators of propaganda.

Pacelli became the new Pope Pius XII in 1939, and he immediately improved relations with Hitler. He broke protocol by personally signing a letter in German to Hitler expressing warm hopes of friendly relations. Shortly afterwards, the Church celebrated Hitler's birthday by ringing bells, flying swastika flags from church towers and holding thanksgiving services for the Fuhrer. (69) Ringing church bells to celebrate and affirm the bishops' allegiance to the Reich would become quite common throughout the war; after the German army conquered France, the church bells rang for an entire week, and swastikas flew over the churches for ten days.

But perhaps the greatest failure of Pope Pius XII was his silence over the Holocaust, even though he knew it was in progress. Although there are many heroic stories of Catholics helping Jews survive the Holocaust, they do not include Pope Pius, the Holy See, or the German Catholic authorities. When a reporter asked Pius why he did not protest the liquidation of the Jews, the Pope answered, "Dear friend, do not forget that millions of Catholics are serving in the German armies. Am I to involve them in a conflict of conscience?" (70) As perhaps the world's greatest moral leader, he was charged with precisely that responsibility.


Nyxie

I must add that Hitler was the author of some of these statements.

See mien kampf.
Heer
Giovannetti, A., Der Vatikan und der Krieg (Cologne) 1961

Originally posted by Nyxie
Up untill he was 24 years old that I know of. Near his death he proclaimed to be an athiest. His view on using the church can best be stated thus :

"We can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice… comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable ...[text shortened]... tatements.

See mien kampf.
Heer
Giovannetti, A., Der Vatikan und der Krieg (Cologne) 1961

Nyxie: "Although there are many heroic stories of Catholics helping Jews survive the Holocaust, they do not include Pope Pius, ... "

You have not been following events and research done, also in cooperation with Jewish organisations. Your above statement cannot be seen as stating the truth. It is one of the lies believed by the majority of the people because it is so convenient in their battle against the Church.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Nyxie: "Although there are many heroic stories of Catholics helping Jews survive the Holocaust, they do not include Pope Pius, ... "

You have not been following events and research done, also in cooperation with Jewish organisations. Your above statement cannot be seen as stating the truth. It is one of the lies believed by the majority of the people because it is so convenient in their battle against the Church.

battling the church.......lol