Nazi Catholics were not excommunicated

For you Ivanhoe :

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Forged.html

Do with it as you will.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
For you Ivanhoe :

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Forged.html

Do with it as you will.

Nyxie

Nyxie, if you search the internet you can find thousands of sites proclaiming the Roman-Catholic faith a hoax, a myth, a forgery, an ideology from the Devil etc etc.

There are even people who produce the "truth" presented to us by the "Da Vinci Code". There really is no end to the proofs that the Roman Catholic Church is in fact an invention of the devil himself.

If you want to find the truth I can only advise you to ALSO study the position the Church herself is presenting to us. There are a lot of lies going round in this world. It is our responsability to investigate the truth without any prejudice or selfserving attitude.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Nyxie, if you search the internet you can find thousands of sites proclaiming the Roman-Catholic faith a hoax, a myth, a forgery, an ideology from the Devil etc etc.

There are even people who produce the "truth" presented to us by the "Da Vinci Code". There really is no end to the proofs that the Roman Catholic Church is in fact an invention of the ...[text shortened]... s our responsability to investigate the truth without any prejudice or selfserving attitude.

I am not trying to discredit the Church here Ivanhoe, I myself believe in the free exchange of ideas. Common sense alone would tell us that the Catholic Church has done wrong, as have other churches. They are run by human beings, and therefore we can fault. Let us explore these faults and learn from them so that we may see and understand better.

Was the catholic church against the printing of the Guttenburg bible? Why?

Was the catholic church behind the inquisition? Why?

Does the catholic Church own stock in the companies of men? Why?

Did the Catholic church try to cover up the molestations? Why?

It is only by shining a light upon these things will the Church evolve and not make the same mistakes of it's past.


Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
I am not trying to discredit the Church here Ivanhoe, I myself believe in the free exchange of ideas. Common sense alone would tell us that the Catholic Church has done wrong, as have other churches. They are run by human beings, and therefore we can fault. Let us explore these faults and learn from them so that we may see and understand better.

Was the cat ...[text shortened]... these things will the Church evolve and not make the same mistakes of it's past.


Nyxie

That shining light also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic Church is NOT the true church of Jesus Christ, but rather all who call Him Lord and Savior are His church.

Originally posted by Darfius
That shining light also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic Church is NOT the true church of Jesus Christ, but rather all who call Him Lord and Savior are His church.

"For wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
--Matthew 18:20

and that is what a church is.....


Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
I am not trying to discredit the Church here Ivanhoe, I myself believe in the free exchange of ideas. Common sense alone would tell us that the Catholic Church has done wrong, as have other churches. They are run by human beings, and therefore we can fault. Let us explore these faults and learn from them so that we may see and understand better.

Was the cat ...[text shortened]... these things will the Church evolve and not make the same mistakes of it's past.


Nyxie

I agree, but you also must agree that many misuse those crimes committed by Church members and indeed clergymen to condemn and dismiss the teachings of Christ.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

I agree, but you also must agree that many misuse those crimes committed by Church members and indeed clergymen to condemn and dismiss the teachings of Christ.

I am trying to do the exact opposite. To take people back to exactly what Christ taught.

Are you at least now admiting that the church has crimed?

And no that does'nt make Jesus' words any less strong. If a church is wrong or does wrong things we must not try to hide it.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
I am trying to do the exact opposite. To take people back to exactly what Christ taught.

Are you at least now admiting that the church has crimed?

And no that does'nt make Jesus' words any less strong. If a church is wrong or does wrong things we must not try to hide it.

Nyxie

Nyxie: "Are you at least now admiting that the church has crimed? "

I never denied this. Of course there were members of the Church and clergymen who supported and cooperated with Hitler during the war. What the Church thought of these Hitler devotees can be read in the encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge" in a way that is not to be misunderstood. There were also members of the Church who resisted the Nazi-regime. Many of them, also from my country, ended up in concentration camps and died there. Few of them returned. I had the privilige of knowing some of them.
As far as Pope Pius XII is concerned: This is a very complicated story. There have been investigations by Jewish historians who contradict the claim which says that this Pope didn't do anything at all to save Jewish people during the war. It is one of these myths that cannot be eradicated because many people want to believe it for political reasons. It is a perfect stick, they think, to beat the Church with.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Nyxie: "Are you at least now admiting that the church has crimed? "

I never denied this. Of course there were members of the Church and clergymen who supported and cooperated with Hitler during the war. What the Church thought of these Hitler devotees can be read in the encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge" in a way that is not to be misunderstood. There ...[text shortened]... believe it for political reasons. It is a perfect stick, they think, to beat the Church with.

When a reporter asked Pius why he did not protest the liquidation of the Jews, the Pope answered, "Dear friend, do not forget that millions of Catholics are serving in the German armies. Am I to involve them in a conflict of conscience?" (70) As perhaps the world's greatest moral leader, he was charged with precisely that responsibility.

I will repost this. You must admit that this quotes shows pope Pius in a very unfavorable light. It seems to me that he was not himself engaged in denouncing Hitler. I'm sure many of the church were, but it does'nt appear that he was.

One of the best christian books I have ever read was called "the Hand that still intervenes". You should read it, for a glimpse at the modern day miracles of how some Jews escaped.

Nyxie

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
Neither the Leader of the entire Roman Catholic Church nor the leaders of the Church in Germany ever ordered the leader of the NAZI AXIS Nations and Mastermind of the Holocaust of 6 million Jews 4 million other innocent victims to stop calling himself a "Catholic".


Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?

Nyxie

Actually, the German Bishop's Conference of 1930 did excommunicate all Nazis.

There you go.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Actually, the German Bishop's Conference of 1930 [b]did excommunicate all Nazis.

There you go.[/b]

If they were excommunicated why did the bishops preach to them and bless them before battle?

http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/RC_nytimes.html

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
If they were excommunicated why did the bishops preach to them and bless them before battle?

http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/RC_nytimes.html

Nyxie

The answer is in the last paragraph of the link you just posted:

The German Catholic clergy, while strongly objecting to certain aspects of Nazi racial policy, has always taken care to emphasize the duty of every Catholic to his country as loyal Germans in the present war.

Same reason why a Catholic who fought for the US in the Second Gulf War is not committing a sin even if it turns out not to be a Just War.

Not every German soldier was a Nazi.

Originally posted by Nyxie
Neither the Leader of the entire Roman Catholic Church nor the leaders of the Church in Germany ever ordered the leader of the NAZI AXIS Nations and Mastermind of the Holocaust of 6 million Jews 4 million other innocent victims to stop calling himself a "Catholic".


Could someone of the Catholic faith please explain this to me?

Nyxie

Of course they didn't. Hitler was after all not setting a precedent with his actions against Jews. That rather dubious honour falls to Pope Paul IV, who ordered all Jews in Rome to live in ghettos and wear badges to identify themselves. He also burned homosexuals at the stake.

D

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I don't know, but he certainly presented himself as a believer during his first years in power and later. He wanted the support of the masses. If you want that you have to present yourself as one of them, as a Christian.

Are you saying that christians are extremely gullible and will follow like sheep any leader who mouths the right words, despite actions to the contrary?

D

Originally posted by Ragnorak
Are you saying that christians are extremely gullible and will follow like sheep any leader who mouths the right words, despite actions to the contrary?

D

1937 March 14 A papal encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Sorrow) is published, dealing with the condition of the Catholic Church in Germany and condemning Nazi racism.

1937 March 21 Mit brennender Sorge, is read from the pulpits of all Catholic Churches in Germany on Palm Sunday. It has been smuggled into Germany, secretly printed and distributed by messenger throughout the nation. "With deep anxiety and with ever-growing dismay" Pius XI says he has watched the tribulations of the Catholic Church in Germany. The Concordat of 1933 is now being openly violated, and the conscience of the faithful oppressed as never before. True belief in God, the Pope declares, is irreconcilable with the deification of earthly values such as race, people or the state. Important as these are in the natural order, they can never be the ultimate norm of all things. Belief in a national God or a national religion, similarly is a grave error. The God of Christianity cannot be imprisoned "within the frontiers of a single people, within the pedigree of one single race." (Lewy)

http://www.humanitas-international.org/holocaust/1937tbse.htm


If they were so gullible, why didn't they all obey the Roman Catholic Church ?

There were Roman-Catholics who indeed did obey the Church and opposed the Nazi-regime. They ended up in Hitler's concentration camps where all his opponents ended up. Many of them never returned. You have to keep in mind that Nazi-Germany was not a free and democratic country. People did not have a free choice as we are having now. If you did not obey the regime you ended up in jail and in many cases you ended up dead. If you have a wife and children to take care off you might think twice.