Originally posted by PatNovak 1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV) - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in ...[text shortened]... w Christians can justify passages like this that promote treating women as such inferior beings.
The verses seem contradictory. Some say 'women keep silent' and others 'prophesy but with your head covered'.
Perhaps they wore down the apostle Paul to the point where he said "Fine, but wear this." and tossed them a bonnet.
I went over these a long time ago when my Dad was categorically against women speaking (especially preaching) while my mother was a worship leader (naturally, she liked the verses that permitted speaking with a head cover, although she usually doesn't wear a head cover 😛).
Originally posted by PatNovak 1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV) - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in ...[text shortened]... w Christians can justify passages like this that promote treating women as such inferior beings.
Originally posted by Rajk999 If you are not a Christian why do you care?
Because Christianity is the largest religion in both my country and the world, with 2+ billion followers worldwide. As such, their beliefs should be a major topic of discussion.
Originally posted by SwissGambit Ooh! Can I use this one in your next anti-Islam thread? 😀
Nice crack.. 🙂. Sure use it .. but I can explain that. Islamic extremists have already tried to take over my country so I have to care ie to watch that they dont do it again.
Now in the case of this thread if Christian women who allow the Christian fundamentalist to put them down [ and not many churches follow those rules nowadays] are women that concerns him then I understand. Otherwise its the right of women to be in a subservient position if they so choose.
Originally posted by sonship Here's the first specimen:
The NT does not say [b]only women should be submissive.
Ephesians 5:21 - "Being subject to one another in the fear of Christ"
That refers to men and women. Paul did not write there " Just you women there ...". And the submission is really toward Jesus Christ. Regard of the authority of Christ will result ...[text shortened]... fining just how these words and phenomenon are used in the whole Bible.
More possible below.[/b]
It seems like your points in your LONG post are that others should also be submissive (youngsters to elders), and that sometimes individual women (Prisca, Aquilla, Junia) were not treated as badly as women were supposed to be treated in general. I don't see anything in your post that counters the idea that the NT wants women to be submissive to men.
Originally posted by PatNovak It seems like your points in your LONG post are that others should also be submissive (youngsters to elders), and that sometimes individual women (Prisca, Aquilla, Junia) were not treated as badly as women were supposed to be treated in general. I don't see anything in your post that counters the idea that the NT wants women to be submissive to men.
the NT wants women to be submissive to men.
On the whole, the NT is littered with conflicting and contradictory teachings since they come from many different sources. As such, its seems a bit odd to speak in terms of what the NT "wants".
The passages that you cited are all traditionally attributed to Paul of Tarsus. Your bone of contention is with him.
In contrast Jesus did not teach such things. The passages you cited sit uneasily with the following words of Jesus:
Matthew 7
12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne [b]the NT wants women to be submissive to men.
On the whole, the NT is littered with conflicting and contradictory teachings since they come from many different sources. As such, its seems a bit odd to speak in terms of what the NT "wants".
The passages that you cited are all traditionally attributed to Paul of Tarsus. Your bone of contention ...[text shortened]... ing, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.[/b]
Didn't Paul of Tarsus supposedly write about half of the NT? Not only that, but he is probably in the top three of the most important Christians of all time (the others being Jesus and Constantine).
I'm told the old testament doesn't apply to Christianity, and now at least half the new testament doesn't apply. Maybe you guys could make a list of the few passages in the bible that actually apply to Christianity, because it is apparently a very small list.
Originally posted by PatNovak Didn't Paul of Tarsus supposedly write about half of the NT? Not only that, but he is probably in the top three of the most important Christians of all time (the others being Jesus and Constantine).
I'm told the old testament doesn't apply to Christianity, and now at least half the new testament doesn't apply. Maybe you guys could make a list of the few ...[text shortened]... es in the bible that actually apply to Christianity, because it is apparently a very small list.
As I said:
"On the whole, the NT is littered with conflicting and contradictory teachings since they come from many different sources."
As such, Christians pick and choose what portions of the Bible they choose to follow.
Your response seems to indicate that you think that all Christians share the same beliefs. Seems like you need to consider all the Christian denominations in existence - not to mention disagreements within given denominations.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Why not make the list for yourself?
Because If I made the list, it would consists of every single word in both the OT and NT. However, Christians here keep telling me more and more of it doesn't apply (which I find strange for a holy book written by, or at least guided by, a being that created everything in the universe).
Originally posted by PatNovak Because If I made the list, it would consists of every single word in both the OT and NT. However, Christians here keep telling me more and more of it doesn't apply (which I find strange for a holy book written by, or at least guided by, a being that created everything in the universe).
Clearly you never read the Bible for yourself. Thats the first sign of a lazy man. You obviously have a problem with certain things written in the Bible but you lack the ability to do things for yourself.
I remember back in 2001 when the Islamic extremist bombed the WTC and Pentagon etc., there was a big uproar from the Islamic community that Islam is a religion of peace. Now I never read the Koran so I could not argue with them. Did I go around asking people to help me understand the Koran? No .. I read it myself and formed my own conclusion.
Try it... read the thing yourself, because now you appear to lack knowledge of what the Bible contains and it seems that you are just looking to condemn rather than acquire knowledge.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Nice crack.. 🙂. Sure use it .. but I can explain that. Islamic extremists have already tried to take over my country so I have to care ie to watch that they dont do it again.
Now in the case of this thread if Christian women who allow the Christian fundamentalist to put them down [ and not many churches follow those rules nowadays] are women that conc ...[text shortened]... understand. Otherwise its the right of women to be in a subservient position if they so choose.
That's all I was after. Non-Christians don't live in a bubble; we generally have some friends and family and government leaders that are Christians. As such we are interested in Christian beliefs and their effect on the people we care about, and their effect on those who have authority over us.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Clearly you never read the Bible for yourself. Thats the first sign of a lazy man. You obviously have a problem with certain things written in the Bible but you lack the ability to do things for yourself.
I remember back in 2001 when the Islamic extremist bombed the WTC and Pentagon etc., there was a big uproar from the Islamic community that Islam is ...[text shortened]... Bible contains and it seems that you are just looking to condemn rather than acquire knowledge.
I realize you want to make ad hominem attacks instead of defending the passages in my original OP, because those passages are pretty indefensible, and you want to distract from them. But I would caution you against suggesting that people read the bible for themselves, because the best way to turn a Christian into a non-Christian is to have them actually read the bible.
New Testament View of Women
21 Jan '14 20:561 edit
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