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    21 Jan '14 15:48
    1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV) - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV) - Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    1 Corinthians 11:5-9 (NIV) - But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

    Ephesians 5:22-24 (NIV) - Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.


    I'm curious how the women here view passages like these, and how Christians can justify passages like this that promote treating women as such inferior beings.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jan '14 17:311 edit
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV) - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in ...[text shortened]... w Christians can justify passages like this that promote treating women as such inferior beings.
    I think it is a bit superfiscial for you to select four passages and mention them as representative of the "New Testament View of Women."

    I could select four passages of a number of chosen flavors and put them forth as the "New Testament View of Men."

    Some of us would rather consider the entire New Testament to ascertain this "view" rather than a very small select isolated passages.

    Christian gospel spread far and wide strongly in the ancient world. One reason was it was a far better teaching for the benefit of women.
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    21 Jan '14 17:36
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think it is a bit superfiscial for you to select four passages and mention them as representative of the "New Testament View of Women."

    I could select four passages of a number of chosen flavors and put them forth as the "New Testament View of Men."

    Some of us would rather consider the [b]entire
    New Testament to ascertain this "view" rather ...[text shortened]... the ancient world. One reason was it was a far better teaching for the benefit of women.[/b]
    It is an incitement that they contain and endorse these passages at all.
    And unless the other passages say "and completely disregard what is said in
    these passages" then what they say is pretty irrelevant.
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    21 Jan '14 18:55
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think it is a bit superfiscial for you to select four passages and mention them as representative of the "New Testament View of Women."

    I could select four passages of a number of chosen flavors and put them forth as the "New Testament View of Men."

    Some of us would rather consider the entire New Testament to ascertain this "view" rather than a ...[text shortened]... ngly in the ancient world. One reason was it was a far better teaching for the benefit of women.
    All you've done is make several assertions, but haven't provided any evidence for those assertions. If you have bible quotes that refute the quotes in my OP, I'd be interested to see them.

    If anything, I am being generous with these quotes by limiting them to the New Testament. The Old Testament is even worse.
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    21 Jan '14 18:57
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    It is an incitement that they contain and endorse these passages at all.
    And unless the other passages say "and completely disregard what is said in
    these passages" then what they say is pretty irrelevant.
    Correction, that's supposed to be indictment and not incitement.
    Can't edit it any more to correct it.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jan '14 19:11
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    All you've done is make several assertions, but haven't provided any evidence for those assertions. If you have bible quotes that refute the quotes in my OP, I'd be interested to see them.

    If anything, I am being generous with these quotes by limiting them to the New Testament. The Old Testament is even worse.
    There is no need to refute the particular passages. They are there. However, the "New Testament View" would include other passages as well. Anyone can sit down at a turkey dinner and hunt for bones to choke on.

    So then, I guess I'll take up your request some. I'll just mention a few things after I close this window and review your passages.
  7. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 20:25
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think it is a bit superfiscial for you to select four passages and mention them as representative of the "New Testament View of Women."
    Nowhere does he say they are representative.
    You are lying again.

    The point is even one such example makes the NT contradictory or at least contrary.

    And isn't each and every part of the bible infallible?
  8. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jan '14 20:253 edits
    Here's the first specimen:

    1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV) - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


    The NT does not say only women should be submissive.

    Ephesians 5:21 - "Being subject to one another in the fear of Christ"

    That refers to men and women. Paul did not write there " Just you women there ...". And the submission is really toward Jesus Christ. Regard of the authority of Christ will result in all being humbled toward one another as well.

    Peter exhorts younger men to be subject to older -

    First Peter 5:5 - In like manner, younger men, be subject to elders;

    Then he goes on to include "and ALL OF YOU" -

    " ... and all of you gird yourselves with humility toward one another, because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

    Therefore be humbled under the mighty hand of God that He may exalt you in due time." (v.6)


    No suggestion that this humility is restricted to the women only. I reserve the right as a Christian brother to also submit and be humbled towards God. It will manifest itself horizontally through the fellowship of all believers.

    This instruction in First Timothy is partly a review of the Apostle Paul's personal practice. He says " I do not permit ..." . And he goes on to present his reasons.

    So some of this instruction should be taken as Paul saying in essence "This was my personal practice. You, Timothy, as my learner co-worker are advised to follow me in my way."

    Before we go to far in condemning Paul about his practice, let's consider that he recognized one female Junia as being of reputation among the other apostles -

    Romans 15:7 - "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

    Some scholars agree Junia was a female name. Paul could be referring to a husband and wife team. It seems unlikely that Paul never heard the sister speak or pray or prophesy. At any rate, he regards the team as his seniors and is therefore self humbling about them. That would include the sister, Junia.

    In the apostolic husband and wife team Prisca and Aquilla Paul mentions the woman's name before that of her husband.

    Romans 15:3,4 - Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles."

    Paul owed them both his life. He must have had his reasons for specifying the woman ahead of her husband. Do you think Paul hushed her up every time she wanted to speak ? I doubt this.

    Anyway, Luke informs us that the husband and wife were instrumental in instructing the deficient ministry of the apostle Apollos (Acts 18:26). Luke there also mentions the wife's name ahead of her husband -

    "And when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him to themselves and expounded the way of God to him more accurately.

    I see harmonious teamwork rather than competition between the man and his wife. Elsewhere we see the husband's name mentioned first (1 Cor. 16:19) .

    Perhaps Priscilla [Prisca] had wealth. Perhaps she took the lead to be consecrated to the Lord's service. We do not know. But she was a blessing to Paul, Apollos, and many churches. I doubt they never heard her speak.

    Now for all the women readers who are eager to be taught by a Christian sister, I would like to recommend one of the best books I have ever read on Christian themes.

    The book by Mary E. McDonough called "God's Plan of Redemption. Anyone who wants to have a woman as a spiritual teacher with authority, I encourage to read that book which is written to teachers. She is instructing teachers how to teach on major aspects of Christ's redemption. I get quite a lot of insight from that book.

    Here you can read some of Mary McDonough's work -

    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1C


    Part of the problem of speaking jealousy between men and women is that people assume to be bestowed upon with a backward collar and dark robe as a "Pastor" or "Reverend" somehow invests them with coveted authority.

    I would rather be a person whose prayers were able to touch the throne of God and move His hand over the earth than to have all the accolades of Seminary - (Reverend, Bishop, Doctor, etc).

    Sister Fanny Crosby wrote over 9,000 Christian hymns.

    http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Fanny-Crosby.html

    They include multitudes hymns which have blessed Christians and seekers for years.

    Some of Crosby's best-known songs include "Blessed Assurance", "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour", "Jesus Is Tenderly Calling You Home", "Praise Him, Praise Him", "Rescue the Perishing", and "To God Be the Glory".


    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby

    Eternity will tell how many people were edified because of one of the hymns of Fanny Crosby over the thousands of preaching messages of men teachers and preachers. She spoke plenty through her marvelous songs and poetry.

    A women who lost her eyesight by medical malpractice who never complained. She always thanked God.

    We Christians owe quite much to another woman teacher, Mrs. Jessie Penn Lewis. She went through the whole Bible and helped us understand the specific biblical usage of such terms as:

    spirit,
    soul,
    heart,
    intuition,
    fellowship,
    communion,
    conscience

    This Christian woman did a marvelous service to the Christian church by exhaustively defining just how these words and phenomenon are used in the whole Bible.

    More possible below.
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 20:29
    Originally posted by sonship
    Anyone can sit down at a turkey dinner and hunt for bones to choke on.
    But when the butcher sells you a boned bird you have a right to question anything you find!

    If the sales pitch for the NT is "Here's a book; there's some good stuff
    in it, some bad stuff and stuff nobody understands ... oh and nobody
    knows which stuff is the good stuff and which stuff is the bad stuff ...
    but you find out when you die" Then there would not be a problem!
  10. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 20:31
    Originally posted by sonship
    Here's are first specimen: ....

    Irrelevant.

    Defend the passages originally quoted.

    Don't give us contradictory passages - we already know the bible is full of contradictions.

    Defend the passages originally quoted.
  11. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 20:33
    Originally posted by sonship
    Sister Fanny Crosby wrote over 9,000 Christian hymns.
    .
    What a fantastic Fanny!
    Never known a Fanny with such output.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jan '14 20:34
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Irrelevant.

    Defend the passages originally quoted.

    Don't give us contradictory passages - we already know the bible is full of contradictions.

    Defend the passages originally quoted.
    It is not irrelevent. You picking through the bible for your various silly excuses to not believe in God are pretty irrelevent.

    After this problem you will no doubt go on to the next rational on your long list. You're arsenal of excuses is much more irrelevant.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jan '14 20:362 edits
    er
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 20:39
    Originally posted by sonship
    It is not irrelevent.
    How was your reply relevant to the Opening Post of
    ...I'm curious how the women here view passages like these, and how Christians can justify passages like this that promote treating women as such inferior beings.
    How do you justify the passages quoted?
    That is the question to you which you have not answered in the least!!
    Other passages in the NT are irrelevant - they are not being discussed.
    Understand? 🙄
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 20:401 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Finally I realise it is dawning on you how stupid you are.
    Hallelujah

    edit: you calmed down now? I see you removed the post
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