1. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Feb '10 16:591 edit
    Something on the "penny for ToOne's thought" thread struck a chord in me.

    In order to try and live a righteous life against a backdrop of injustice , selfishness , hate and evil surely requires a belief and a faith of some description.

    We must have faith in certain values and ideals and also believe that they will prevail. When everyone around you is looking at you like you are a fool for sticking to your guns on some ethical issue , or for forgiving and helping someone they think you should despise (as Jesus did) - then it's easy to give in.

    Faith is neccessary to give one the courage that love will prevail , that doing what is right (but maybe not profitable) is worth doing because it is in tune with a higher power.

    This is what faith in Christ is about (but it also manifests itself in any faith in goodness and love). To believe that you are going to be on the winning side even when it really doesn't seem that way at the time. To actually believe that goodness does win out in the end.

    That's faith.

    What the likes of ToOne don't understand is that righteousness cannot be achieved without faith , it's not possible to maintain it without hope and faith. To place a false dichotomy between faith and righteousness is insane. To ToOne it seems that faith and belief are dirty words somehow.

    My hope is that ToOne is intelligent enough to see that he really is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it--always. "
    -----------Ghandi--------------
  2. Standard memberua41
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    04 Feb '10 17:43
    Really? I need faith to be a righteous person?
    Ad hoc
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Feb '10 18:13
    Originally posted by ua41
    Really? I need faith to be a righteous person?
    Ad hoc
    I'm sorry , you need to simplify your argument a bit more before I can understand it.

    Do you actually have any point you want to make at all , or were you just firing from the hip?
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    04 Feb '10 18:56
    Originally posted by ua41
    Really? I need faith to be a righteous person?
    Ad hoc
    No. You need faith in Christ in order for Christ to be your righteousness before God.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 Feb '10 19:171 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Something on the "penny for ToOne's thought" thread struck a chord in me.

    In order to try and live a righteous life against a backdrop of injustice , selfishness , hate and evil surely requires a belief and a faith of some description.

    We must have faith in certain values and ideals and also believe that they will prevail. When everyone around t in the end they always fall. Think of it--always. "
    -----------Ghandi--------------
    What do you make of this passage?

    Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
    Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


    Several people on this site tried to explain that passage but it sounded like gibberish.

    Here is some of my thoughts :

    - God is not a respecter of persons. That means he does not care what you call yourself, Jew, Greek .. whatever. He is looking at your heart and your ability to DO good works.
    - Doers of the law are justified. Not Hearers
    - Those who dont have the Law (of Moses), but whose conscience guides them to do good works will be justified.

    Would you say that the Gentile - who does not have the Law - but who does good works and is found to be justified in the day of judgment is not righteous?
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    04 Feb '10 19:362 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Something on the "penny for ToOne's thought" thread struck a chord in me.

    In order to try and live a righteous life against a backdrop of injustice , selfishness , hate and evil surely requires a belief and a faith of some description.

    We must have faith in certain values and ideals and also believe that they will prevail. When everyone around t in the end they always fall. Think of it--always. "
    -----------Ghandi--------------
    I think we all have faith in some form of fashion, it just depends in what. Some place their faith in the "goodness" of humanity, some have faith in their own abilities, some place their faith in loved ones, some place their faith in their own "goodness" etc. Having done so we have some success, although it is finite and utlimately falls short. However, when you place your faith in God, you are placing your faith in what you believe he said and did. You are placing your faith in him with the mind set that even though you fall short and those around you fall short we will not fall short in the long run.

    We have all fallen short in some form or capacity, so how can we make up for our past shorcomgings? We can't. All we can do is then choose to side with God and participate in the winning side. Choosing to do God's will is equated with righteousness because his will is righteous and we then choose to participate. In short, it has NOTHING to do with our righteousness and everything to do with the righteousness of God, if we choose to seek his will and participate in it.
  7. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    04 Feb '10 19:54
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Something on the "penny for ToOne's thought" thread struck a chord in me.

    In order to try and live a righteous life against a backdrop of injustice , selfishness , hate and evil surely requires a belief and a faith of some description.

    We must have faith in certain values and ideals and also believe that they will prevail. When everyone around ...[text shortened]... t in the end they always fall. Think of it--always. "
    -----------Ghandi--------------
    "Faith is neccessary to give one the courage that love will prevail , that doing what is right (but maybe not profitable) is worth doing because it is in tune with a higher power.

    This is what faith in Christ is about (but it also manifests itself in any faith in goodness and love).
    "

    I don't see why the higher power part is necessary. Nor do I see why it is necessary that good and right win out in the end. Isn't there value in making the local space around you better by behaving rightly?
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    04 Feb '10 20:374 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Something on the "penny for ToOne's thought" thread struck a chord in me.

    In order to try and live a righteous life against a backdrop of injustice , selfishness , hate and evil surely requires a belief and a faith of some description.

    We must have faith in certain values and ideals and also believe that they will prevail. When everyone around t in the end they always fall. Think of it--always. "
    -----------Ghandi--------------
    What the likes of ToOne don't understand is that righteousness cannot be achieved without faith , it's not possible to maintain it without hope and faith. To place a false dichotomy between faith and righteousness is insane. To ToOne it seems that faith and belief are dirty words somehow.

    Like usual you misrepresent my position. Are you incapable of making an honest post?

    My position has been and continues to be that the standard Jesus set is righteousness itself. Having belief and falling short of righteousness does not meet this standard. What you've written about me is your usual BS.

    Here's a little advice for you: righteousness can't be achieved with a deceitful heart.

    Matthew 5
    “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven...Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    Matthew 7
    Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
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    04 Feb '10 20:41
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    no faith = no righteousness
    You're joking, right? Or that there are some meaning of your posting that I don't understand.

    May I invent a new word: religiocentric.

    Righteousness seems to be something christian to you. Then you should remember that unless not the majority of all people of this world is christians, and by this I mean 90%+, then you should think about why the other ones think differently. Perhaps they are rightm, and you're wrong. Perhaps you belive in illusions and others don't.

    In reality christians as a whole is not a majority. Only 24.54% - 28.82% believs in the same religion as you do. The rest of the world believs you are wrong.
    Furthermore, there are a bunch of different system of beliefs within the christian religion so there aren't many who believs in the same branch as you do. Sorry, your belong to a small minority.

    So if you say that people not sharing your beliefs have no righteousness makes me smile a bit. When someone saying the same about his race, his political life, or his whatever, then it's called racism, or even worse things. But you feel confident that you, and only those who believe in what you do is the right ones, make my smile stiffen.

    I have faith. Faith that some christians would grow up. But I don't call myself righteous. Righteousness is a religious word. A excluding word. Not even Jesus was excluding. Read your bible and be more humble in the future.
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    04 Feb '10 22:181 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]What the likes of ToOne don't understand is that righteousness cannot be achieved without faith , it's not possible to maintain it without hope and faith. To place a false dichotomy between faith and righteousness is insane. To ToOne it seems that faith and belief are dirty words somehow.

    Like usual you misrepresent my position. Are you incapabl does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]
    Would not Jesus Christ himself turn the other cheek instead of slapping back? Why do you insist on retaliating instead of gently correcting him? You may say that he will stay the same and continue to misrepresent you but would not Jesus Christ himself continue to turn the other cheek?
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Feb '10 23:271 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]What the likes of ToOne don't understand is that righteousness cannot be achieved without faith , it's not possible to maintain it without hope and faith. To place a false dichotomy between faith and righteousness is insane. To ToOne it seems that faith and belief are dirty words somehow.

    Like usual you misrepresent my position. Are you incapabl does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]
    My position has been and continues to be that the standard Jesus set is righteousness itself.
    ------------ToO---------------------

    Just out of interest..............why do you think that Jesus' teachings should be taken more seriously than St Paul's?

    What gives Jesus authority over Paul?

    You continually quote the guy but you have never to my knowledge explicitly explained why we should follow him.
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Feb '10 23:31
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    You're joking, right? Or that there are some meaning of your posting that I don't understand.

    May I invent a new word: religiocentric.

    Righteousness seems to be something christian to you. Then you should remember that unless not the majority of all people of this world is christians, and by this I mean 90%+, then you should think about why the othe ...[text shortened]... ing word. Not even Jesus was excluding. Read your bible and be more humble in the future.
    Re-read the post and you will see that it's very open to all kinds of "faith". I even quoted a non-christian , as an example of the point I was making.

    I think you missed what I was saying.
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Feb '10 23:36
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    "[b]Faith is neccessary to give one the courage that love will prevail , that doing what is right (but maybe not profitable) is worth doing because it is in tune with a higher power.

    This is what faith in Christ is about (but it also manifests itself in any faith in goodness and love).
    "

    I don't see why the higher power part is necessary. Nor do ...[text shortened]... the end. Isn't there value in making the local space around you better by behaving rightly?[/b]
    don't see why the higher power part is necessary. Nor do I see why it is necessary that good and right win out in the end.
    -----------------swiss------

    Sometimes "behaving rightly", as you put it , is not easy at all. It might put you in danger . You might become highly unpopular. You may become despondent. You might be killed. You obviously didn't grasp why Ghandi said what he said. He faced enormous odds against him , but his faith saw him through.

    Righteousness could be very costly for any individual , unless, of course, all you had in mind was putting a few coins in a tin and picking up litter occasionally?
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 Feb '10 23:361 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    My position has been and continues to be that the standard Jesus set is righteousness itself.
    ------------ToO---------------------

    Just out of intetrest..............why do you think that Jesus' teachings should be taken more seriously than St Paul's?

    What gives Jesus authority over Paul?

    You continually quote the guy but you have never to my knowledge explicitly explained why we should follow him.
    Lol .. I just love that question. 😀

    Ok .. you are serious that you dont know the answer.
    Its the same thing that gives God authority over Paul.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Feb '10 23:47
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]What the likes of ToOne don't understand is that righteousness cannot be achieved without faith , it's not possible to maintain it without hope and faith. To place a false dichotomy between faith and righteousness is insane. To ToOne it seems that faith and belief are dirty words somehow.

    Like usual you misrepresent my position. Are you incapabl ...[text shortened]... does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]
    Here's a little advice for you: righteousness can't be achieved with a deceitful heart.
    ---------------ToOne-----------------------

    However , to live as Jesus commanded could be (and was and still is) very dangerous for individuals. It was for him.

    You forget that it cost many of his followers their lives. The world does not like pure righteousness. We live in an unjust and sometimes cruel and evil world. To stand up against British rule took great faith from Ghandi et al.

    For many of us it might cost ridicule or loss of earnings. To live righteously (live well , morally) it's a great help to have faith that the universe is ultimately moral and that goodness is rewarded. It requires some difficult choices and decisions. It takes courage and faith.

    All I'm asking is this.....When we decide to choose righteousness "because it's the right thing to do" , what does this really mean?
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