Originally posted by chaney3You've told us you're an alcoholic. If I may ask, is someone trying to help you stop drinking altogether or are they trying to get you to drink "responsibly" and "in moderation"?
I think my point is that drinking responsibly, or in moderation, may be an illusion. For on some occasion, even once, the line will be crossed into being drunk. Maybe Jesus never crossed that line, but who else can say it?
Originally posted by FMFYou cannot merely say "in and of itself", because then you are dismissing the behavior that accompanies being drunk.
I don't see anything immoral about getting drunk? Do you think there's something immoral about getting drunk, in and off itself? If so, what is immoral?
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Originally posted by chaney3I think it can be done if one confines oneself to drinking at meal times, or sets limits like a beer a day. I have a bar that I built using a temperature controller and a freezer. It has two full kegs, one of Timothy Taylor Landlord a fine Yorkshire pale ale made with Slovenian Bobek hops and an American Indian pale ale made with those gorgeous fruity American hops, Chinook, Simcoe and Williamette, they are delicious and refreshing but I will be able to confine myself to a beer a day.
I think the real issue of responsible drinking and moderation comes down to whether you can do it EVERY time. It only takes one incident of crossing the line into getting drunk that can change a life. A car accident, domestic violence, a marital affair...etc.
Can one be successful every time???
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Originally posted by chaney3I'm not dismissing it at all. Immoral behaviour caused by being drunk is immoral behaviour. There's no dispute about that. No such immoral behaviour is being dismissed. The question is as follows: is being drunk or getting drunk inherently immoral? And if you think so, why?
You cannot merely say "in and of itself", because then you are dismissing the behavior that accompanies being drunk.
Originally posted by chaney3Sorry, just a turn of phrase.
Why are you accusing me of having 'anyone' in my sights? I don't.
You are saying that even a responsible drinker will likely get drunk at times? Right?
What I meant was that Noah had a much more interesting relationship with alcohol. (Just google Noah and drunkenness).
Originally posted by FMFIn your scenario, it seems as if you want to discuss the 'act' of getting drunk.....and not discuss the actions while drunk. They go hand in hand.
I'm not dismissing it at all. Immoral behaviour caused by being drunk is immoral behaviour. There's no dispute about that. No such immoral behaviour is being dismissed. The question is as follows: is being drunk or getting drunk inherently immoral? And if you think so, why?
Unless this person is locked in a cell to get drunk, with no opportunity to interact with society, and no chance of commiting the immoral behavior, that 'could' happen otherwise.
I am not claiming that being drunk is any gaurantee of immoral behavior, but the risk is greater than that of a sober mind.
Originally posted by chaney3You are speaking like an alcoholic. The same way a normal person can eat in moderation without excess, gluttony or overweight, a normal person can drink in moderation without being a drunkard.
I think my point is that drinking responsibly, or in moderation, may be an illusion. For on some occasion, even once, the line will be crossed into being drunk. Maybe Jesus never crossed that line, but who else can say it?
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Originally posted by chaney3No, of course being drunk does not guarantee immoral behaviour, I would have thought that was obvious. That's why I don't see how it can be described as inherently immoral. Do you think the "greater risk" of committing immoral acts (by some people but not others) makes being drunk immoral for all people?
I am not claiming that being drunk is any gaurantee of immoral behavior, but the risk is greater than that of a sober mind.
Originally posted by chaney3yes this is true, it lowers inhibitions for sure.
In your scenario, it seems as if you want to discuss the 'act' of getting drunk.....and not discuss the actions while drunk. They go hand in hand.
Unless this person is locked in a cell to get drunk, with no opportunity to interact with society, and no chance of commiting the immoral behavior, that 'could' happen otherwise.
I am not claiming that being drunk is any gaurantee of immoral behavior, but the risk is greater than that of a sober mind.
Originally posted by Rajk999C'mon Rak!!!
You are speaking like an alcoholic. The same way a normal person can eat in moderation without excess, gluttony or overweight, a normal person can drink in moderation without being a drunkard.
The question is 'every time'!!
Have you never eaten too much?? Not one time? Never drank too much?? Just once?
This issue of moderation.....is ALL the time. With ALL things.
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Originally posted by FMFHow you could have missed this from the previous page I have really no idea. Clearly you are either not reading my texts of your reading comprehension is very poor.
You've claimed to have worked with alcoholics and in the recovery and rehabilitation of alcoholics. Do you tell people with this particular disease that it's ok to drink alcohol as long as it's "in moderation"?
'There are of course times when abstention is the course of wisdom, if we are a recovering alcoholic, or we are at work, or we are operating heavy machinery, driving a vehicle', etc etc - robbie carrobie
One gets the impression that your texts are really insincere and you are simply seeking to land a blow every time rather than simply understand and assimilate the differing perspectives.