Originally posted by FMFSo you are in agreement with Dive then? My asking about Matthew 11:19, about Jesus drinking alcohol, and why He would be accused of being a drunkard are all valid reasons for me to be called a dickhead?
I think the kind of responses you provoke are exactly the type of attention you are seeking. But that's just my penny's worth.
You agree with Dive?
Originally posted by chaney3I'm more interested in talking about the topic of Jesus and him supposedly being "a drunkard". divegeester has called a couple of regular posters here "dickheads" over the years - you and robbie carrobie, if memory serves. Meanwhile he has NOT called (literally) hundreds of posters "dickheads" including countless other members of this community with whom he has had sharp differences of opinion.
So you are in agreement with Dive then? My asking about Matthew 11:19, about Jesus drinking alcohol, and why He would be accused of being a drunkard are all valid reasons for me to be called a dickhead? You agree with Dive?
If you want to get to the bottom of why you are seen by some as a "dickhead", and what you might have in common with robbie carrobie in this regard, I suggest you start a thread about it ~ where you can wallow in this dreary blame-others victimhood-attention you seem to seek and enjoy ~ rather than distracting from this conversation about consumption of alcohol v alcohol abuse.
Originally posted by chaney3When you say "Jesus said it", what exactly is it that you think Jesus "said" about "being accused of a drunkard" or, for that matter, what exactly do you think Jesus "said" that might be relevant in some way to you and your alcoholism?
...a difcicult and sensitive topic such as Jesus, the Savior being accused of a drunkard. Again, Matthew wrote it and Jesus said it.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeA person who is a moderate, or social drinker, with no link to alcoholism or alcohol abuse, can and does at times drink to excess and get drunk. It is the 'nature of the beast' with regards to drinking. Anyone at all who takes the first glass of wine is subject to crossing the line of moderation, into being drunk, even if only occasionally. So if people on this forum are okay with Jesus enjoying wine, responsibly, is it that far out of reach to imagine He could have had too much wine at times? Like any other person?
I honestly think you need to consider more the difference between 'consuming' and 'abusing' alcohol. (As you would for 'food' for example. - Should Jesus have avoided food, due to people suffering with obesity? )
Robbie gave a sufficient reply in that Jesus could not have gotten drunk because that may be considered a sin? And Jesus was sinless.
With the problems that alcohol has caused to many people and families across the world, it's a wonder that Jesus turned water into wine, and drank it Himself. Even if He never got drunk, alcohol still alters the mind, and it's just surprising to me personally that the Savior would place Himself in a possible position to be scrutinized for how He may have been drinking, and if some thought He may have been drunk.
Originally posted by chaney3If people think that being drunk is a "sin" - i.e. a transgression of a supernatural being's explicit will - then that is a matter for them and the texts they draw their 'rules' from. But, aside from this particular notion of "sin", does anyone really believe that being drunk is immoral? Of course, being drunk can lead to immoral behaviour - that is not disputed - but is there a moral argument that intoxication is, in and of itself, morally unsound?
Anyone at all who takes the first glass of wine is subject to crossing the line of moderation, into being drunk, even if only occasionally. So if people on this forum are okay with Jesus enjoying wine, responsibly, is it that far out of reach to imagine He could have had too much wine at times? Like any other person? Robbie gave a sufficient reply in that Jesus could not have gotten drunk because that may be considered a sin? And Jesus was sinless.
Originally posted by chaney3You seem to trying to hold Jesus responsible in some way for the abuse of alcohol. I believe the abuse of any substance is an issue of personal responsibility and not one that can be blamed on supernatural factors. Perhaps you could elaborate on how an alcoholic can credibly attribute his or her condition, to whatever degree, to Jesus Christ.
With the problems that alcohol has caused to many people and families across the world, it's a wonder that Jesus turned water into wine, and drank it Himself. Even if He never got drunk, alcohol still alters the mind, and it's just surprising to me personally that the Savior would place Himself in a possible position to be scrutinized for how He may have been drinking, and if some thought He may have been drunk.
As was asked earlier, does the fact that the "THEY" cited in Matthew 1:19 accused Jesus of being a glutton mean that responsibility for things like obesity and bulimia can, in some part, be laid at the feet of Jesus Christ?
Originally posted by FMFYou, like Rak, think I am somehow blaming Jesus for something. I don't believe I've said anything that would assign blame.
You seem to trying to hold Jesus responsible in some way for the abuse of alcohol. I believe the abuse of any substance is an issue of personal responsibility and not one that can be blamed on supernatural factors. Perhaps you could elaborate on how an alcoholic can credibly attribute his or her condition, to whatever degree, to Jesus Christ.
As was asked ea ...[text shortened]... lity for things like obesity and bulimia can, in some part, be laid at the feet of Jesus Christ?
Originally posted by chaney3It is crystal clear that you are " somehow blaming Jesus for something".
You, like Rak, think I am somehow blaming Jesus for something. I don't believe I've said anything that would assign blame.
Page 5 of this thread:
FMF: Has somebody claiming to be a Christian told you that Jesus has some sort of personal responsibility towards you in curing your alcoholism?
chaney3: Absolutely yes, if He is the "God of Your Understanding".
FMF: So if Jesus liked to drink alcohol, does that mean he's maybe kind of letting you down and ... maybe it's OK to have another drink, even if you are an alcoholic?
chaney3: One could certainly say yes to that. If Jesus says it's okay, then why not?? ...
FMF: Alcoholics need to avoid alcohol. Non-alcoholics don't need to avoid alcohol. How can you not know that? You sound a bit bogus, frankly. Has nobody told you that alcoholism is a disease and not simply 'drinking alcohol'?
chaney3: You seem to be clueless in how much God is supposed to be involved in a person's recovery, if they are involved with a 12 step program.
Originally posted by FMFIf your behavior while drunk enters the immoral arena, and it's behavior that you would never see while sober, then yes, being drunk could be considered morally unsound.
If people think that being drunk is a "sin" - i.e. a transgression of a supernatural being's explicit will - then that is a matter for them and the texts they draw their 'rules' from. But, aside from this particular notion of "sin", does anyone really believe that being drunk is immoral? Of course, being drunk can lead to immoral behaviour - that is not disputed - but is there a moral argument that intoxication is, in and of itself, morally unsound?
Originally posted by FMFThose posts are directly related to recovery, and how Jesus is supposed to help with recovery. And that's if one is following a 12 step program...and if Jesus is their Higher Power.
It is crystal clear that you are " somehow blaming Jesus for something".
Page 5 of this thread:
FMF: [b]Has somebody claiming to be a Christian told you that Jesus has some sort of personal responsibility towards you in curing your alcoholism?
chaney3: Absolutely yes, if He is the "God of Your Understanding".
FMF: So if Jesus liked to ...[text shortened]... supposed to be involved in a person's recovery, if they are involved with a 12 step program.[/b]
Some alcoholics will stop drinking utilizing their own will power. Some fail, some don't. But 12 step programs advise that one's own will power is insufficient, and a Higher Power is therefore necessary.
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Originally posted by chaney3I said this: "Of course, being drunk can lead to immoral behaviour - that is not disputed". Immoral behaviour, whatever the cause, is surely immoral behaviour. However, the question is this: is there a moral argument that intoxication, in and of itself, is morally unsound?
If your behavior while drunk enters the immoral arena, and it's behavior that you would never see while sober, then yes, being drunk could be considered morally unsound.
Originally posted by chaney3So are you denying that what you said on page 5 is blaming Jesus for something with regard to alcoholism?
Those posts are directly related to recovery, and how Jesus is supposed to help with recovery. And that's if one is following a 12 step program...and if Jesus is their Higher Power.
Jesus is supposed to help with recovery
Aren't there perhaps countless hundreds of thousands or millions of Christian alcoholics who feel they get "help with recovery" because of their faith?
Originally posted by FMFIf a person is more apt to indulge in immoral behavior while intoxicated, the true question is....why risk it?
I said this. Of course, being drunk can lead to immoral behaviour - that is not disputed. Immoral behaviour, whatever the cause, is surely immoral behaviour. However, the question is this: is there a moral argument that intoxication is, in and of itself, morally unsound?