Nonexistent Justice

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm actually going to 'man-up' and apologise for my usage of the term "enthusiastic ignorant" where my intention was to mean "layperson or uninformed" but conveyed with irate venom based on the strength of your rebuttals.
The increasingly aggressive posts on my and your part was started with my reaction to your innacurate response to finnegan:

"Pi re tion with] pi is the idea that no circle found within the universe is perfect

Thanks for that: I'll ratchet back as well.

However, I remain convinced that the nature of pi, i.e., it's infinite progression of decimation, the fact that we cannot construct it, etc., render it a unique manifestation of (for lack of a better description) perpetual imperfection.

Were the number whole, a perfect circle wouldn't be simply the domain of imagination, it would be reality.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Thanks for that: I'll ratchet back as well.

However, I remain convinced that the nature of pi, i.e., it's infinite progression of decimation, the fact that we cannot construct it, etc., render it a unique manifestation of (for lack of a better description) perpetual imperfection.

Were the number whole, a perfect circle wouldn't be simply the domain of imagination, it would be reality.

Well I'm still not in full agreement here since even if pi was integer valued you still have to satisfy for a perfect circle (in the real world) all points on the circle lie equidistant from it's centre. My problem isn't so much with the fact pi is irrational, it is with the (physically unachievable) constraints imposed by its definition. Same goes with other geometric objects.

anyway, peace! 🙂

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
If justice is not universally realized, does it exist?

Sure! But it's cousin, complete justice, does not.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Sure! But it's cousin, complete justice, does not.

not until the last day

Originally posted by daniel58
not until the last day

Absolute Justice is not widely considered to feature in Biblical and related accounts of the Last Day. Depending on how you choose to identify the the Just, and it is often defined rather restrictively, extreme and eternal punishment awaits a huge part of the human population.

"But the heavens and earth now, by the same word, have been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2 Pet. 3:3-7)

There are two ways to consider this. Justice may be defined as whatever God says it is - and he has a pretty odd sense of what is ok but without direct revelation most of us are screwed and unable to work out what the logic might be. Or justice may be determined against absolute standards, in which case it is going to be very hard to establish that God is just - by any recognizable or consistent definition.

Take just one example. Eternal punishment of startling severity would appear disproportionate to most if not all failings of which we are likely to be accused. Justice in most views would dictate proportionality and allowing for wide uncertainty, eternal torment as described by Christians is not proportionate.

Originally posted by finnegan
Absolute Justice is not widely considered to feature in Biblical and related accounts of the Last Day. Depending on how you choose to identify the the Just, and it is often defined rather restrictively, extreme and eternal punishment awaits a huge part of the human population.

"But the heavens and earth now, by the same word, have been stored up for fir ...[text shortened]... llowing for wide uncertainty, eternal torment as described by Christians is not proportionate.

Absolute, perfect justice does figure throughout the Bible in various passages as it describes the function of God's integrity. Justice figures into the impetus behind the promise to the woman (how she became to be called Eve) as well as in the daily life of the Christian.

Without the function of justice, God could never bless man with eternal life. Without Him as the template for justice, man's flailing in the area would simply be one long history of frustration.

The truth is, man knows nothing of the ideal, but as it relates to Him... whether He is named or not.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Absolute, perfect justice does figure throughout the Bible in various passages as it describes the function of God's integrity. Justice figures into the impetus behind the promise to the woman (how she became to be called Eve) as well as in the daily life of the Christian.

Without the function of justice, God could never bless man with eternal life. W ...[text shortened]... th is, man knows nothing of the ideal, but as it relates to Him... whether He is named or not.

Such nonsense merits a longer response but I need to sleep so it must wait. I also need to work on my French Defence urgently in addition to life and everything. But you have asked for it and I shall deliver an account of the Biblical farce that you call Justice.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Absolute, perfect justice does figure throughout the Bible in various passages as it describes the function of God's integrity. Justice figures into the impetus behind the promise to the woman (how she became to be called Eve) as well as in the daily life of the Christian.

Without the function of justice, God could never bless man with eternal life. W th is, man knows nothing of the ideal, but as it relates to Him... whether He is named or not.

Right now, this eternal life blessing is the first problem. It devalues this life and it lies about death. It has been described as the original and still ultimate military weapon since it helps to make men into martyrs and fanatical jihadists or crusaders. It promotes fear of death and inability to form a realistic and caring philosophy for those who must deal - and we all must - with their own mortality and that of their loved ones.

The quality that it ignores is this - that we have life - amazing. It focuses on a negation (after life) and destroys all joy. Life is to be affirmed. Evolution did not give us death - most of the matter in the universe is inert and dead. Evolution gave us the spark of life, which we have ample opportunity to appreciate and relish because our senses in time became capable of self awareness.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Absolute, perfect justice does figure throughout the Bible in various passages as it describes the function of God's integrity. Justice figures into the impetus behind the promise to the woman (how she became to be called Eve) as well as in the daily life of the Christian.

Without the function of justice, God could never bless man with eternal life. W ...[text shortened]... is, man knows nothing of the ideal, but as it relates to Him... whether He is named or not.lif

Next, the thing about eternal life is that it is not unconditional and not terribly attractive.

Not attractive because Christianity (and the Koran perhaps more so) is poisoned with the pornography of hell. I wonder if I even need to explain or describe this, but we all know that the next life has been described in disgusting and elaborate detail - with a level of artistic license that suggests the authors have severe personality or psychiatric disorders. The fear of hell is promoted with such intensity as to amount to mental torment, and this is presented to children as part of their education by frothing, dysfunctional zealots who should never be allowed near or within the hearing of a child.

Yes the Anglicans (and perhaps others) abolished hell in an act of Synod in the 1920s, presumably having notified God in correct procedural form, and the Catholic Church seems to have discarded Limbo as a gesture in that direction - but I am not aware that they have been able to rewrite the Bible or their own histories. Pope Benedict of course has reaffirmed the reality of Hell for those who doubt it. These are presentational and promotional details. Hell is fundamental to Christianity and always was.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Absolute, perfect justice does figure throughout the Bible in various passages as it describes the function of God's integrity. Justice figures into the impetus behind the promise to the woman (how she became to be called Eve) as well as in the daily life of the Christian.

Without the function of justice, God could never bless man with eternal life. W th is, man knows nothing of the ideal, but as it relates to Him... whether He is named or not.

Then, having laid the ground as it were, we turn to judgment, the operation of Divine Justice at its most critical I would imagine. And we can ask that important question : what is Justice: is it whatever God decides he wants it to be today (and let's hope the Last Day is one when he is in a better mood than we have seen in the Bible) or is there a standard of Justice to which God (perhaps by choice, not necessity) will conform?

Well here is one comment (by Nietzsche): The "Last judgement" is the sweet comfort of revenge."

There may be three principles that operate:

Man is saved by good works. Matt 16:27, 19:16-17; Mark 10: 17-25; Luke 18:18-22, 19: 8-9). That's nice but the punishments and rewards are so disproportional as to be clearly unjust and arbitrary. Man can also be saved if he walk away from and abandon his wives and children (Matt:19:29; Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30). That seems to be one for the boys.

Man is saved by an arbitrary gift from God - or a variant of predestination unaffected by any choice we make. (Eph. 1:4-9). That's whimsical, not justice.

Those who believe are saved - the rest (everyone) are damned. (John 3:15-16, 18, 36; 6:47; 11:25-26). However faith itself maybe just a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9) and God also makes this more unfair by messing with our heads and sending "powerful delusions" so that people will not believe what is needed for salvation, making sure they are damned despite their best efforts (2 Thess 2:11-12).

But we all have the possibility of salvation because Jesus died for our sins. This core teaching accepts the principle of a scapegoat which is not justice. And even then, the salvation is conditional ... taking us back in a circle to where we started. It changes very little in principle: even if we decide that it might make things less bleak, they remain pretty bleak.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Absolute, perfect justice does figure throughout the Bible in various passages as it describes the function of God's integrity. Justice figures into the impetus behind the promise to the woman (how she became to be called Eve) as well as in the daily life of the Christian.

Without the function of justice, God could never bless man with eternal life. W th is, man knows nothing of the ideal, but as it relates to Him... whether He is named or not.

Enough for now

Originally posted by finnegan
Enough for now

Actually, it was too much before you even started. Your figuring is wrong on so many levels, it's a touch difficult to establish where to begin...

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Actually, it was too much before you even started. Your figuring is wrong on so many levels, it's a touch difficult to establish where to begin...

Try.

Originally posted by finnegan
Try.

Well, if you insist.

In your first post, you claim that eternal life somehow devalues life and lies about death. In what is presumed to be support for this, you cite anonymous narrative regarding jihad kamikazes and their ilk. While it may be assumed that you have some link between these two concepts, it's not immediately apparent what that link might be exactly.

In contrast to this, you claim that evolution gave us life and that life is to be affirmed. The basis of your directive seems to be nothing more than the fact that we have senses. Of course, such thinking fails to consider the fact that as part of our sensory make-up, we are also equipped to feel pain.

Your second post doesn't fare much better. You claim eternal life is not unconditional: certainly you cannot be referring to Christianity, where the basic understanding is that every one lives forever. Where each of us ends up is another story, and presumably the idea behind your second contention (itself a contradiction to your first, but no matter), that eternal life is not attractive.

Again, the reader is left to wonder what Bible you may be privy to, as the Bible the rest of the world describes an eternal life for the children of God as surpassing the wildest pleasures imaginable. Of course, for those who refuse the gift of salvation from eternal separation, there is that eternal separation known as hell. You next bewilderingly describe hell as pornographic. The description--- intended to shock--- is inappropriate and ill-advised. There's nothing explicitly sexy or enjoyable or gratifying about hell.

Have some become overly zealous in their depictions of hell for the express purpose of manipulating others' fear--- and thus control? No doubt. I've seen parents ill-equipped to lead their children do the same thing with the boogey man, police man or even the other parent head. All of them equally wrong.

Your last post touches on the question of what justice is, and you rightfully equate it with God. Why? Because justice is based upon His character, since He Himself is perfect justice. Had you stopped there, you'd been ahead of the game, but then you go and impugn Him with inconstancy... something clearly not described in the Bible. Blasphemy, basically.

The remainder of the post, you bob around from rotten apple to putrid pear, all with the same result. The Bible was not meant to be taken in microscopically, but as a whole. What may be unclear or uncertain in one passage needs to be seen in the light of others--- in some cases, all others. Your fallacy is to think you have the whole iceberg when you first spot the tip breaking your horizon.

Taken as a whole, the situation couldn't be more joyful.