1. Territories Unknown
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    13 Apr '10 04:02
    If justice is not universally realized, does it exist?
  2. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Apr '10 05:001 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If justice is not universally realized, does it exist?
    If one defines “justice” as “acting justly”—however one might further specify what that entails—then any single just act instantiates justice (or just behavior) in the world.

    If one takes “justice” to refer to some metaphysical universal—“justness”, akin to, say, redness—then, again, any particular instantiation would allow one to say that justness exists in the world. After all, all things do not have to be red to instantiate redness (assuming that one ascribes to such universals).

    _______________________________________________


    EDIT: If by “realized”, you simply mean something like recognized or acknowledged, then I’m not sure what you’re getting at. You, as a theist, for example, would hardly say that God’s existence depends upon universal recognition—or universal instantiation (e.g., pantheism) for that matter.

    Since I’ve recently been revisiting my old Taoist stomping grounds, I might say that “the Tao that is not universally instantiated (in every existent and their inter-relationships) is not the real Tao” (giving a twist to ole Lao Tzu). But, then, I don’t really view the Tao as a metaphysical substance either.
  3. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    13 Apr '10 08:42
    I think you would need to specify precisely what you mean by justice.
  4. Donationrwingett
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    13 Apr '10 10:20
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If justice is not universally realized, does it exist?
    Given that there are many injustices in the world, perfect justice obviously does not exist. But there are many particular cases of justice that do exist amidst the chaos of daily life.
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    13 Apr '10 10:27
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If justice is not universally realized, does it exist?
    Yes.

    Universal recognition is not a requirement for the existence of anything that exists.

    If a "thing" exists, then it exists independent of its' "recognition" by anyone other than its' creator.
  6. Territories Unknown
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    13 Apr '10 12:54
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    I think you would need to specify precisely what you mean by justice.
    The absolute, the ideal. If any situation occurs wherein justice is excluded, can we conclude that justice itself does not exist? Akin to what rwingett is referencing, i.e., there is no such thing as perfect justice--- if justice is not perfect (enjoyed by all), can we say that it even exists?
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    13 Apr '10 14:39
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If justice is not universally realized, does it exist?
    Justice is all in the eye of the beholder. For example, Marxists would say justice is served with Robin Hood tactics of taking from the rich.....unless it is their own wealth we are talking about. Statists would say that empowering government and minimizing corporate power leads to justice. Radical Islam would say that 9/11 was justice for America's influence in the middle east. Americans would say that the US involvement in Afghanistan is justice in response to 9/11. In short, you own perecived personal justice would tend to empower and benefit yourself and detract from your adversaries.

    Of course, if there be a God, then such a God has his own criteria for justice. I find the justice of the God of the Bible interesting. The God of the Bible does not appear to equate justice in the same way that we do. In fact, he sent his son to the cross to die for our sins so that we might have life. Such justice does not appear to be as narcissistic as our own. Such justice seems actually to be concerned with justice rather than merely personal benefit. In fact, such justice comes at a very high cost to his own person.
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    13 Apr '10 14:412 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Given that there are many injustices in the world, perfect justice obviously does not exist. But there are many particular cases of justice that do exist amidst the chaos of daily life.
    Is the golden rule perfect justice? Is it perfect justice to do unto others as you would have them do to you? It seems to me that perfect justcie does exist, however, not many adhere to it 100% of the time. In fact, God has given us an innate sense of this justice and to defy it requires intellectual gymnastics such as rationalization just so we can look in the mirror every day.
  9. Territories Unknown
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    13 Apr '10 14:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    Justice is all in the eye of the beholder. For example, Marxists would say justice is served with Robin Hood tactics of taking from the rich.....unless it is their own wealth we are talking about. Statists would say that empowering government and minimizing corporate power leads to justice. Radical Islam would say that 9/11 was justice for America's influe ...[text shortened]... an merely personal benefit. In fact, such justice comes at a very high cost to his own person.
    Socrates:
    “I think that justice belongs in the best class [of goods], that which should be loved both for its own sake and for the sake of its consequences by anyone who is going to be blessed”
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    13 Apr '10 19:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    Justice is all in the eye of the beholder. For example, Marxists would say justice is served with Robin Hood tactics of taking from the rich.....unless it is their own wealth we are talking about. Statists would say that empowering government and minimizing corporate power leads to justice. Radical Islam would say that 9/11 was justice for America's influe ...[text shortened]... an merely personal benefit. In fact, such justice comes at a very high cost to his own person.
    I find the justice of the God of the Bible interesting.

    Really? I find it quite bizarre.
  11. Joined
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    13 Apr '10 19:591 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    The absolute, the ideal. If any situation occurs wherein justice is excluded, can we conclude that justice itself does not exist? Akin to what rwingett is referencing, i.e., there is no such thing as perfect justice--- if justice is not perfect (enjoyed by all), can we say that it even exists?
    I for one am confused by your questions. Are you asking if "imperfect justice" is a contradictory thing, like a logically impossible thing? And you seem to think that imperfect here means "not enjoyed by all". So, is your question whether or not "justice not enjoyed by all" is logically impossible (as in, whether or not it would entail a contradiction)?
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Apr '10 22:48
    Originally posted by whodey
    Is the golden rule perfect justice? Is it perfect justice to do unto others as you would have them do to you? It seems to me that perfect justcie does exist, however, not many adhere to it 100% of the time. In fact, God has given us an innate sense of this justice and to defy it requires intellectual gymnastics such as rationalization just so we can look in the mirror every day.
    “Please stop doing unto me!”
    cried the lady to the lord.

    “Madam, fret not!”
    the lord replied.
    ”The golden rule
    commands that I must
    allow you in awhile
    to do unto me too!”
  13. Territories Unknown
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    14 Apr '10 02:43
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    I for one am confused by your questions. Are you asking if "imperfect justice" is a contradictory thing, like a logically impossible thing? And you seem to think that imperfect here means "not enjoyed by all". So, is your question whether or not "justice not enjoyed by all" is logically impossible (as in, whether or not it would entail a contradiction)?
    I'll grant you that it is a little hard to follow. In a sense, you've touched on an element of the idea, i.e., imperfect justice, but that isn't quite the entire symphony.

    Let's put it another way. Is the universe (as it concerns man) just?
  14. Territories Unknown
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    14 Apr '10 02:44
    Originally posted by vistesd
    “Please stop doing unto me!”
    cried the lady to the lord.

    “Madam, fret not!”
    the lord replied.
    ”The golden rule
    commands that I must
    allow you in awhile
    to do unto me too!”
    Present "ouch!" with a future "oh!"?
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    14 Apr '10 06:24
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    I'll grant you that it is a little hard to follow. In a sense, you've touched on an element of the idea, i.e., imperfect justice, but that isn't quite the entire symphony.

    Let's put it another way. Is the universe (as it concerns man) just?
    Speaking for myself, I'm afraid your restatement didn't help.

    You stated that "in a sense, [I] touched on an element of the idea". Perhaps it would help me if you develop that a bit further.
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