Not Sure-Sure

Originally posted by rwingett
You've struck me in the past as someone who was more concerned with the real world application of Chrisitianity as manifested in a striving for social justice. It puzzles me as to why you would cling so tenaciously to the more otherwordly and mythological aspects of Christianity, such as alleged resurrections and virgin births.

Or put in less eloquent terms -

'Wot are you bangin' on about woman'?

Originally posted by rwingett
You've struck me in the past as someone who was more concerned with the real world application of Chrisitianity as manifested in a striving for social justice. It puzzles me as to why you would cling so tenaciously to the more otherwordly and mythological aspects of Christianity, such as alleged resurrections and virgin births.

She is a baby Christian. She still needs to grow and learn so she can
better express her beliefs and mythology will not be one of them, for
God is not mythology as you seem to think.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you believe in fairies too? Surely existence would be more pleasant with them as well?

why does it follow that if i make a leap of faith in believing in god, i must make any leap of faith presented to me? if i believe in god, i must believe in fairies? if i believe in fairies, i must also believe in unicorns, and dragons, and talking puppies?

am i allowed to draw the line somewhere? or do you believe i should also think i could fly and just jump out the window before going to work? or do you deny me the right to do that, to reason, just because i personify love?

people live their lives day by day making small leaps of faiths. for example, i made a leap of faith today by walking out the door, trusting there won't be a maniac who will run me over with his car on my way to the bus station. should i believe in faeries because of that? and would that mean that because i have faith something improbable won't happen (there is a small chance a nutjob would deliberately squish me with his car but it is possible) that i have given my right to make the rational decision not to cross a red light?

Originally posted by rwingett
You've struck me in the past as someone who was more concerned with the real world application of Chrisitianity as manifested in a striving for social justice. It puzzles me as to why you would cling so tenaciously to the more otherwordly and mythological aspects of Christianity, such as alleged resurrections and virgin births.

They are not "alleged" to me.

My faith says they happened and their happening forms the very basis for my religion. Calling them otherworldly and mythological doesn't mean they didn't happen. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater. Christianity also happens to be a good support scaffolding for other issues such as social justice, as you say.

Originally posted by 667joe
According to Penn (of Penn and Teller), if you are not 100% sure god exists, you are an atheist. If you are 100% sure god exists, (something that has not been proven), you are very arrogant. To further the situation, if you are arrogant, you are not being humble as Jesus commands.

Just because I cannot prove that God exists, doesn't mean I am not 100% sure that He does in fact exist. And no, this belief does not automatically make me arrogant, either. I can feel God moving within me. Some days more so than others. I would guess that Mr. Jillette does not feel his unbelief moving within him. He has his opinion, and I have mine. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Suzianne
They are not "alleged" to me.

My faith says they happened and their happening forms the very basis for my religion. Calling them otherworldly and mythological doesn't mean they didn't happen. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater. Christianity also happens to be a good support scaffolding for other issues such as social justice, as you say.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as the other atheists on this site do. I'm trying to separate the baby from the bathwater by throwing out just the mythological aspects. If you insist on clinging to them both, you're just ensuring that both eventually will be thrown out. By keeping Christianity locked in the Middle Ages by insisting that nonsense such as virgin births and resurrections are literally true, you're dooming all of it to obsolescence.

Originally posted by 667joe
According to Penn (of Penn and Teller), if you are not 100% sure god exists, you are an atheist. If you are 100% sure god exists, (something that has not been proven), you are very arrogant. To further the situation, if you are arrogant, you are not being humble as Jesus commands.

According to God if you deny His existence you are a liar.

Originally posted by rwingett
I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as the other atheists on this site do. I'm trying to separate the baby from the bathwater by throwing out just the mythological aspects. If you insist on clinging to them both, you're just ensuring that both eventually will be thrown out. By keeping Christianity locked in the Middle Ages by insisting that no ...[text shortened]... irgin births and resurrections are literally true, you're dooming all of it to obsolescence.

"By keeping Christianity locked in the Middle Ages by insisting that nonsense such as virgin births and resurrections are literally true, you're dooming all of it to obsolescence."

You don't know much about manuscript evidence do you?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"By keeping Christianity locked in the Middle Ages by insisting that nonsense such as virgin births and resurrections are literally true, you're dooming all of it to obsolescence."

You don't know much about manuscript evidence do you?[/b]

You don't know much about manuscript evidence do you?

Manuscript evidence?! Someone wrote something down on a piece of paper a long time ago so now it has to be true.

Do you believe all the stories contained in Greek mythology? If not, why not?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why does it follow that if i make a leap of faith in believing in god, i must make any leap of faith presented to me? if i believe in god, i must believe in fairies? if i believe in fairies, i must also believe in unicorns, and dragons, and talking puppies?

You justified your belief as as a choice you made based on the belief that such belief would make your existence more pleasant.
So yes, you should therefore make any leap of faith presented to you if said leap of faith makes your existence more pleasant.
I want to know why you don't.

am i allowed to draw the line somewhere?
Only if you give a valid reason for doing so.

or do you believe i should also think i could fly and just jump out the window before going to work?
If you believe it will make your existence more pleasant then surely yes.

people live their lives day by day making small leaps of faiths. for example, i made a leap of faith today by walking out the door, trusting there won't be a maniac who will run me over with his car on my way to the bus station. should i believe in faeries because of that? and would that mean that because i have faith something improbable won't happen (there is a small chance a nutjob would deliberately squish me with his car but it is possible) that i have given my right to make the rational decision not to cross a red light?
So are you saying that your belief in God is a 'small leap of faith'?
And you seem to be confusing 'rational decisions' with 'leaps of faith' and trying to pretend they are equivalent.
On the on hand you have no rational belief for God, so call it a 'leap of faith', on the other hand you present as analogies rational decisions that you try to dress up as 'leaps of faith'.

You clearly consider belief in fairies irrational. Why would that be?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]You don't know much about manuscript evidence do you?

Manuscript evidence?! Someone wrote something down on a piece of paper a long time ago so now it has to be true.

Do you believe all the stories contained in Greek mythology? If not, why not?[/b]

Right now I don't have time to reply to this. I'll be back with one as soon as I find the time.

Originally posted by josephw
Right now I don't have time to reply to this. I'll be back with one as soon as I find the time.

There is no rush Joseph.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You justified your belief as as a choice you made based on the belief that such belief would make your existence more pleasant.
So yes, you should therefore make any leap of faith presented to you if said leap of faith makes your existence more pleasant.
I want to know why you don't.

[b]am i allowed to draw the line somewhere?
Only if you give ...[text shortened]... of faith'.

You clearly consider belief in fairies irrational. Why would that be?[/b]

You justified your belief as as a choice you made based on the belief that such belief would make your existence more pleasant.
So yes, you should therefore make any leap of faith presented to you if said leap of faith makes your existence more pleasant.
I want to know why you don't.

because i am a sentient rational being, not a robot programmed to a single behavioral pattern. supposing chocolate gives you pleasure, does that forces you to eat other sweets as well? or do you allow yourself to draw the line and say "chocolate is the best for me, i don't need other sweets"?


am i allowed to draw the line somewhere?
Only if you give a valid reason for doing so.

do you trust your wife not to steal your money? do you trust a stranger not to steal your money? if yes to the former, and no to the latter, i guess that reason is applicable to me trusting god to exist and not faeries. (simplified)


or do you believe i should also think i could fly and just jump out the window before going to work?
If you believe it will make your existence more pleasant then surely yes.

just because i gave the "my existance is more pleasant with god in it" doesn't follow i base my faith solely on that. there is a multitude of reasons you love your mother, not just because she gave you icecream once and furthermore, that doesn't forces you to love anyone who gives you icecream.


And you seem to be confusing 'rational decisions' with 'leaps of faith' and trying to pretend they are equivalent.
no i don't. i just say they must not be mutually exclusive or related. i make a leap of faith that the volvo coming in my direction won't just hop on the sidewalk and run me over and i make the rational decision to not jump in front of it so that i be run over.
i can be rational even if i make leaps of faith. humans aren't machines forced to run the same program over and over again.


You clearly consider belief in fairies irrational. Why would that be?
i have insufficient data on them. i don't know their philosophical system and what i do know about them from the fairy tales that mention them is that they be damn hippies without a valid social and economical structure. and since i find god (the christian version) to be quite suited to my philosophical needs, i find that switching to an alternate deity is undesirable at this moment. if tomorrow a prophet for the fairies appears and starts preaching the fairy truth, i will give him a fair hearing and consider switching deities (i probably won't as jesus is a swell guy)

Originally posted by josephw
According to God if you deny His existence you are a liar.

I rather suspect you mean 'according to the bible'.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I rather suspect you mean 'according to the bible'.

One and the same essentially.

The book we call the Bible is a collection of 66 books which contain the Word of God. 66 books written by 40 men each inspired by God to pen the words which have been preserved through time.