Originally posted by avalanchethecatThen use them.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei
My sense, reason and intellect, granted me by god, if there is such a thing, leaves me unable to accept what you say as offering a true reflection of the nature of things. Note that I do not in any way deny the possibility of there being a god.
No one is saying you shouldn't.
It's not about what I say. The Bible clearly states that we are sinners separated from the life that is in God by our sin.
If you are using the faculties you are endowed with, then it should be abundantly clear to you that you are a sinner.
Originally posted by josephwAlas no, for my god-given faculties reveal to me that people definitely do sometimes lie and exaggerate, and that other people definitely do sometimes believe their fabrications. Conversely, I have not found convincing reasons to believe that miracles ever take place. I am therefore only able to conclude that placing faith in the bible would be unwarranted. Consequently I am able to accept that there might be such a thing as god after all, since the rejection of scripture leaves room for a believable deity.
Then use them.
No one is saying you shouldn't.
It's not about what I say. The Bible clearly states that we are sinners separated from the life that is in God by our sin.
If you are using the faculties you are endowed with, then it should be abundantly clear to you that you are a sinner.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatMaking sense in a senseless world.
Alas no, for my god-given faculties reveal to me that people definitely do sometimes lie and exaggerate, and that other people definitely do sometimes believe their fabrications. Conversely, I have not found convincing reasons to believe that miracles ever take place. I am therefore only able to conclude that placing faith in the bible would be unw ...[text shortened]... h a thing as god after all, since the rejection of scripture leaves room for a believable deity.
Yes. We all lie at one time or another. There is deliberate deceit occurring everywhere.
Look. Faith is not blind contrary to conventional wisdom. Believe the truth because it is obvious.
I would never try to convince someone to believe in something without evidence.
That's moronic.
Originally posted by josephwLook. Faith is not blind contrary to conventional wisdom. Believe the truth because it is obvious.
Look. Faith is not blind contrary to conventional wisdom. Believe the truth because it is obvious.
I would never try to convince someone to believe in something without evidence.
.
If it were obvious, it would not require faith. What seems obvious to you seems extraordinarily unlikely to me.
I would never try to convince someone to believe in something without evidence.
You have evidence? Non-subjective, non-scriptural, non-anecdotal, independently verified or verifiable evidence? Sounds interesting...
Originally posted by avalanchethecatCan you wrap your mind around this?
[b]Look. Faith is not blind contrary to conventional wisdom. Believe the truth because it is obvious.
If it were obvious, it would not require faith. What seems obvious to you seems extraordinarily unlikely to me.
I would never try to convince someone to believe in something without evidence.
You have evidence? Non-subjective, non-scriptural, non-anecdotal, independently verified or verifiable evidence? Sounds interesting...[/b]
The universe and all that exists IS the evidence for a creator.
That's how obvious it is. Faith is believing the truth.
It is willful ignorance to continually deny it. Soon you won't know what to believe if you keep it up.
Originally posted by josephwThe universe and all that exists IS the evidence for a creator.
Can you wrap your mind around this?
The universe and all that exists IS the evidence for a creator.
That's how obvious it is. Faith is believing the truth.
It is willful ignorance to continually deny it. Soon you won't know what to believe if you keep it up.
As I said, I disagree.
That's how obvious it is. Faith is believing the truth
It doesn't seem obvious to me. And you don't need faith to believe an obvious truth.
It is willful ignorance to continually deny it. Soon you won't know what to believe if you keep it up.
If I don't agree with your viewpoint I'm being wilfully ignorant? Well, you're entitled to an opinion, I guess. Personally I choose neither to believe nor disbelieve in that which cannot be proved, which seems to me to be the right and obvious thing to do.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat"If I don't agree with your viewpoint I'm being wilfully ignorant?"
[b]The universe and all that exists IS the evidence for a creator.
As I said, I disagree.
That's how obvious it is. Faith is believing the truth
It doesn't seem obvious to me. And you don't need faith to believe an obvious truth.
It is willful ignorance to continually deny it. Soon you won't know what to believe if you keep i ...[text shortened]... n that which cannot be proved, which seems to me to be the right and obvious thing to do.
I keep telling you it's not about me. Try to be more objective. I'm simply mirroring the Biblical view. I didn't invent the truth. I know more about the Bible than anything else. I'm no fool. I don't simply believe blindly. Blind faith leads to error. I study the scriptures. I am aware of opposing views. If you insist on arguing with me as though I'm making this stuff up, you're never going to get it.
If you know the truth, then say it.
Originally posted by josephwI keep telling you it's not about me. Try to be more objective. I'm simply mirroring the Biblical view. I didn't invent the truth. I know more about the Bible than anything else. I'm no fool. I don't simply believe blindly. Blind faith leads to error. I study the scriptures. I am aware of opposing views. If you insist on arguing with me as though I'm making this stuff up, you're never going to get it.
[b]"If I don't agree with your viewpoint I'm being wilfully ignorant?"
I keep telling you it's not about me. Try to be more objective. I'm simply mirroring the Biblical view. I didn't invent the truth. I know more about the Bible than anything else. I'm no fool. I don't simply believe blindly. Blind faith leads to error. I study the scriptures. I a ...[text shortened]... is stuff up, you're never going to get it.
If you know the truth, then say it.[/b]
You keep telling me it's about the bible, but as I explained, I find good reason to believe that the bible is not a reliable source of information. Also I don't consider the existence of us and the universe to be convincing evidence to support those scriptures.
If you know the truth, then say it.
I don't know any spiritual truth, sorry.
Originally posted by Hand of HecateI'll look it up and check it out, then I'll get back. Maybe in a few days or a week.
My apologies, I've been drunk for three days straight.
As a result I'll have to let the internet make my argument for me:
http://img.moonbuggy.org/its-ok-as-long-as-you-believe/
PWND!
In the mean time get plenty of rest and proper nutrition.
Originally posted by Hand of Hecateif i could rec you i would. until then, please receive a spiritual rec.
My apologies, I've been drunk for three days straight.
As a result I'll have to let the internet make my argument for me:
http://img.moonbuggy.org/its-ok-as-long-as-you-believe/
PWND!
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwYes validity of sources about God would be a another big discussion.
[b]"I believe we are immensely arrogant when we think we can define the Divine Source so easily."
It is arrogant to think we can define God at all.
If there be a God, then only He can define Himself. Therefore, if God defines Himself, how do we learn about God?
Obviously it would have to be from God Himself.
That's as far as I'm going to go ...[text shortened]... thing you know we'll be arguing about the validity of the source of the knowledge of God.[/b]
I don't feel like I am arguing with you, just sharing viewpoints.
I appreciate your posts joseph. They are sincere, thoughtful and respecting of others. Aggresive arguing is not a very effective way to explore the subtleties of spiritual truths to me.
The word "God" is so blurry and different for different people, even within the same religious tradition. It is hardly ever properly defined what actually we are talking about. What is this God, Where is he? Is gender applicable to God? Would he look like a human to a human and an alien to an alien? Is he just like Light? Or is "He" something like Mind?
The word God gets thrown around endlessly in confusion because we have different concepts of what the word stands for. Clarity is a first step otherwise its all chaotic confusion. Then we do feel depressed.
I was trying to explain my own way of thinking about "God". As to authority of saying what is true or not about "God" you are right, because it becomes a discussion (but usually then it turns into an argument) of the authority to be an authority!
Or an argument about what the meaning of any sacred words means.
Endlessly, as history shows. I look to inner authority, or better still no need for any authority whatsoever. My other posts have tried to explain that.
Originally posted by TaomanThank you for those kind words.
Yes validity of sources about God would be a another big discussion.
I don't feel like I am arguing with you, just sharing viewpoints.
I appreciate your posts joseph. They are sincere, thoughtful and respecting of others. Aggresive arguing is not a very effective way to explore the subtleties of spiritual truths to me.
The word "God" is so blurry an ...[text shortened]... still no need for any authority whatsoever. My other posts have tried to explain that.
In the beginning I was not so thoughtful. But I have learned a lot from everyone in this forum. I think I have learned to temper my post.