24 Oct '10 01:54>
Originally posted by josephwHand? At the end of my arm.
Where's the Hand? [b]Where's the Hand? 😲[/b]
Maybe you mean "the Hand of God"?
Originally posted by josephwSo then what brought natural laws into existence?
So then what brought natural laws into existence?
Did they always exist?
Is it necessary that matter exists before natural laws would exist?
Which came first? The chicken or the egg?
Well, guess what? The chicken came first. It has been discovered that there is an enzyme in the shell of a chicken egg that only exists in the ovaries of a chicken. So naturally a chicken would have had to exist before the egg.
Originally posted by karoly aczelThese questions were supposed to be rhetorical ;]
1.What does that matter?
2.Dont know
3.Everything affects everything else.
4.the reason that it cant be created is that it is not done properly,
5.Tis not "magic" . Only "physics"
(I'm going to cop it for these answers but I thought I would try to answer)
Originally posted by Hand of HecateOccam had it right, but the diagram is not the simplest when referring to atheism.
http://img.moonbuggy.org/occams-razor/
Think maybe Occam was onto something?
Originally posted by Agerg"How the universe got here on the other hand is a question neither you, I, nor anyone else is equipped to answer validly."
[b]So then what brought natural laws into existence?
I have no need to suppose they were brought into existence...they are a property of the universe. How the universe got here on the other hand is a question neither you, I, nor anyone else is equipped to answer validly.
Did they always exist?
So long as there is a natural universe it is reason he case.
As for chickens and eggs, you haven't really resolved the circularity there ;][/b]
Originally posted by Taoman"Ask yourself, what exists at any level or any dimension without awareness?"
Occam had it right, but the diagram is not the simplest when referring to atheism.
Awareness or Consciousness is prior to any belief, of which atheism is but one.
So:
Primordial Awareness......................Current Awareness................Future Awareness.
But as Awareness is prior to the mental conception of time and (according to A.E.) space, i ...[text shortened]... self, what exists at any level or any dimension without awareness?
(Edits typographical)
Originally posted by AgergI should've known they were rhetorical. 🙂
These questions were supposed to be rhetorical ;]
[b]1.What does that matter?
Perhaps it is important to know the origin of this stuff...is the creation of X merely a translation across dimensions of the 'particles' X is comprised of, or is it perhaps the case that the summation of all 'stuff' in all dimensions has been increased by the creation of X. Wh le really do believe in magic (albeit they might refer to it by some other terminology)[/b]
Originally posted by AgergTime "started" at the BB because that's the farthest time back we can gather information about, that's all.
[b]So then what brought natural laws into existence?
I have no need to suppose they were brought into existence...they are a property of the universe. How the universe got here on the other hand is a question neither you, I, nor anyone else is equipped to answer validly.
Did they always exist?
So long as there is a natural universe it is reason ...[text shortened]... he case.
As for chickens and eggs, you haven't really resolved the circularity there ;][/b]
Originally posted by josephwYeeees. Sort of. My only difficulty with the usual "God" label is that "HE" is usually very defined and with a lot of human projections. I could possibly accept the label (I once did) if it didn't have all the dualistic attachments that usually go with it.
[b]"Ask yourself, what exists at any level or any dimension without awareness?"
Nothing.
Therefore there was an awareness before the existence of anything. And awareness means a being with the capacity of awareness. Because without consciousness there is no awareness, and there can be no consciousness without an entity with awareness.
God.[/b]
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWe usually say that the Universe started at BigBang.
Time "started" at the BB because that's the farthest time back we can gather information about, that's all.
Originally posted by KellyJayOk, well divegeester used the word 'seem', clearly implying that to him (or her?) subjectively, situation (a) appeared to be simpler than situation (b). I responded to divegeester's post in kind, using the word 'sound' to imply a similar subjective judgement. Clearer now? I realise that there is a current vogue in this forum for pontificating as though one's unproven and unprovable beliefs were factual, but you may be assured that this is not a fashion I will adopt. And please don't think I'm referring only to the theists there - to my mind there is sufficient doubt regarding the origins of the universe to regard the big bang theory as somewhat speculative also.
No, it did not come across that way to me.
Kelly
Originally posted by josephwBut if I say I do know, and since you don't know, you can't say authoritatively that I'm wrong.
[b]"How the universe got here on the other hand is a question neither you, I, nor anyone else is equipped to answer validly."
In your opinion.
By saying that, you automatically disqualify yourself from saying I'm wrong for believing that God created the universe. That statement renders you unable to say whether I'm right or wrong.
If, as you sa ou can't say authoritatively that I'm wrong.
You have to admit that I may be right.[/b]
Originally posted by avalanchethecatMay I clarify that the BigBang theory says nothing about the origin of our Universe, i.e. t=0, only what happened after time started, i.e. t>0, and there the BigBang theory explains it very well.
Ok, well divegeester used the word 'seem', clearly implying that to him (or her?) [b]subjectively, situation (a) appeared to be simpler than situation (b). I responded to divegeester's post in kind, using the word 'sound' to imply a similar subjective judgement. Clearer now? I realise that there is a current vogue in this forum f ...[text shortened]... the origins of the universe to regard the big bang theory as somewhat speculative also.[/b]
Originally posted by avalanchethecatYour right, I miss read you. My bad.
Ok, well divegeester used the word 'seem', clearly implying that to him (or her?) [b]subjectively, situation (a) appeared to be simpler than situation (b). I responded to divegeester's post in kind, using the word 'sound' to imply a similar subjective judgement. Clearer now? I realise that there is a current vogue in this forum f the origins of the universe to regard the big bang theory as somewhat speculative also.[/b]