12 Sep 14
Originally posted by RBHILLSo we are extremely lucky in our choice of planets. Gain information in DNA? Oh please, believing in Jesus Christ, that is the ultimate placebo.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/video.php?v=513241702111850&set=vb.443476065755081&type=2&theater
He didn't prove anything except we live in a special place, because it is a special place, we live in a special place where live can exist. We would not have this conversation if we had evolved on Mars since it is now a lifeless desert even if it had water, atmosphere and life a few billion years ago, Mars lost out in the long run.
Earth has also had its ups and downs, like that little asteroid thing that clobbered the western hemisphere 65 million years ago, and the supernova that may have also caused a major extinction. Things have not always gone so nice for Earth even if we won the magnetic shield lottery due to our larger size than Mars.
Mars lost its magnetic shield a long time ago and paid the price in a devastated atmosphere taken away one molecule at a time by UV from the sun and solar storms cranking off bits of it's previously thick atmosphere.
So we on Earth won a planet that is clearly the jewel of the Solar system and perhaps the jewel of space for hundreds of light years around.
Just because we live on this jewel of a planet doesn't mean there are zero other places like Earth in this immense universe.
The thing about evolution and life origins is we, as humans, are in kindergarten scientifically speaking.
People assume that just because we have the internet and probes rolling around Mars and GPS and high def TV getting pictures from anywhere on Earth, that means we are the kings of the universe or some such rot.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is we are not even in first grade in our learning about life and life origins and evolution and medicine and such.
We will get to first grade when medical research can for instance, regrow broken spines so we can walk again, or killing cancer or Aids or Ebola forever.
Or knowing enough to take basic amino acids and create a bacteria from scratch in a lab.
All these things we can't do now puts us in kindergarten scientifically and these religious idiots use that as an argument showing what they think of as proof some god exists.
Of course they skim over the part where 100 million regular folks got killed in the pogroms of the 20th century and many millions of religious deaths from the past 2000 years with nary a peep out of your so-called gracious loving god.
That is not the kind of god I want to know.
So assuming we live through the next few hundred years intact as a civilization, able to go to other planets, able to make this continual advances in medicine as we have been, we might get to 3rd grade and eventually to college level where we can PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt exactly how we got here with no need for a deity.
So until that time arrives, you religious folks can be safe in your oh so arrogant stance about Jesus Christ and being literal about Earth being 6000 years old, where even a kindergarten kid can see that is totally wrong, have fun while it lasts but it is not going to last forever. Humans WILL advance to college level from our present kindergarten level of science and will eventually have the last laugh on obsessive religious arrogance.
Originally posted by sonhouseCome, come sonhouse. The man makes a compelling argument.
So we are extremely lucky in our choice of planets. Gain information in DNA? Oh please, believing in Jesus Christ, that is the ultimate placebo.
He didn't prove anything except we live in a special place, because it is a special place, we live in a special place where live can exist. We would not have this conversation if we had evolved on Mars since it ...[text shortened]... arten level of science and will eventually have the last laugh on obsessive religious arrogance.
I mean, like the argument that, if you come across something complex, then no way can that have just popped into existence or evolved over time. It must, absolutely must, have been created.
There's no way you can argue with this.
The only thing I am wondering, though, since I am now a theist, is whether it might be better for me not to worship God, but rather the entity that created God.
I mean, I know of nothing more complex than an omnipotent, omniscient, immortal entity capable of designing a universe spanning some 200 billion galaxies, and the trillions of planets within each of them, right down to each individual life form. In six days. And then keeping itself entirely invisible to every scientific test ever devised by man.
So, clearly, God must have been designed, and his designer might be a bit pissed at his creation getting all the glory.
12 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rank outsiderOh yes we CAN argue that designer bit. We can't argue there may have been a designer for the whole universe and you can hypothesize about that, but my theory for that could be this: Our universe, the whole shooting match, could be the equivalent of a high school physics experiment, like our universe in a cage in a school lab where the results are charted year by year and each galaxy has to be accounted for and the experiment duly noted.
Come, come sonhouse. The man makes a compelling argument.
I mean, like the argument that, if you come across something complex, then no way can that have just popped into existence or evolved over time. It must, absolutely must, have been created.
There's no way you can argue with this.
The only thing I am wondering, though, since I am now a ...[text shortened]... ave been designed, and his designer might be a bit pissed at his creation getting all the glory.
So here we are, humans, in a universe that allows life, so we are not the only ones but on our planet it sure LOOKS like we are the only ones so we make up a religion where some god so much loved us it created us in its image? Come on, doesn't that strike you as just a TEENY bit odd, that a deity would actually look like humans or have ANY kind of human traits, like that 'I am a jealous god' thing?
We have proven pretty convincingly the universe is NOT 6000 years old like YEC's say, which is an arrogant stance to begin with, like humans would be so high up the totem pole that it took a god to make us?
The thing that dude on the tube said, was bogus because he clearly knows nothing of the incredible adaptability of chemicals to react with each other, as if from his POV, there were only a few molecules that could have gotten together to make more complex ones, like all that happened one molecule at a time.
It didn't happen one molecule at a time, there were literally uncountable trillions of quadrillions of these little 'experiments' going on simultaneously and each one could have resulted in a slightly different result, since carbon is SO versatile it can have uncountable number of ways it can combine with other molecules to create an endless supply of amino acids and such.
The Miller experiment proved a bit of lightning can produce amino acids from the atmosphere and some water and even more complex molecules which happened in a matter of days in that lab experiment from 50 odd years ago.
So here we have, not just one bottle in a lab, but an entire planet with ocean vents producing hot water for extremely long periods of time, here we have clays that can mimic containers for reactions, get them confined in small spaces, in an early adaptation of shape that down the line gets replaced by cell membranes and such.
This dude has ZERO understanding of just how much diversity there was in the molecular combinations possible when you had back a few billion years ago, lightning, ocean bottom vents producing hot water reactions, lightning producing reactions, asteroid and meteor hits causing chemical reactions, literally MILLIONS of asteroid/meteorites hitting the early Earth. Literally thousands of times per second of these different kind of reactions happening all over the planet for literally millions of years, enough combinations get played out that no deity is needed, with the possible caveat the entire universe was created by a deity, that is all it would have need to do, this deity, make a universe where life is just possible, not that any given planet would now be the ancestral home for life, it can happen anywhere in any solar system where the conditions are right, for instance, he mentioned the 23 degree tilt of our spin around the sun, it has only been seen on Earth we benefited from this chance alignment of planets, Earth and Moon, that allowed that. Even with no tilt, there still could be life and evolution, there is no proof it can't.
All those arguments have huge holes in them, specifically designed to attract those who want to believe that tale and don't have a background that lets them examine the hypotheses in detail. Sheep following the herd, and no real analysis of what the dude and others like him say.
The kind of arguments the dude comes up with are all predicated on the fact that human science is very young. You might think that all the advances we have made so far puts us way up on the big picture of science but in fact we are still in kindergarten scientifically speaking. Come back in three hundred years, assuming we survive the next few centuries with the ability to do science at the pace we have gotten used to, with the internet and new technologies, science is evolving at an exponential rate, we can to things medically, for instance, that we could not have imagined even 20 years ago. So the kind of arguments these religious dudes come up with start out disparaging all of science and evolution especially AND demanding that evolution and life origins be combined together, saying things like, well, you can't even tell how life got here so why do think evolution is right, or words to that effect.
Evolution is the study of life changes as we see them, what happens to life AFTER it is already here.
There is ZERO attempt to explain life origins in evolution because that is a separate scientific discipline.
There is the science of evolution and a separate science of life origins, each with different goals and methods.
Evolutionists could care less HOW life got here, they are in the here and now and the study of fossils and that is ALL.
They leave the origin question up to an entirely different branch of science.
But the anti science bunch of YEC's want to FORCE the two to be one discipline and in so doing, they weaponize pseudoscientific crap in opinion pieces like this dude in question and others, who might even have Phd's but have an agenda to destroy evolution in order to prove their position that Earth is 6000 years old. THAT IS NOT SCIENCE. That is politics. Their goal is to persuade enough people that evolution is some kind of atheistic vast conspiracy to destroy Christianity and so forth using pseudo science and arguments that have been busted over and over again but they just keep on putting on those bogus video's with fast talking charlatan salesman types that try to persuade people to come into their camp with the goal of defeating evolution and to force creationism to be taught AS IF IT WERE A SCIENCE, in a science class, not a theology class. They don't want it in theology, they want it to be converted to a LAW, creationism is the ONLY way it happened and ANY other theory is now blasphemy. That is the ultimate goal and I thank the justice system for seeing through all the gimmicks they used like substituting 'intelligent design' for christian creationism and now the latest ploy, coming from the angle of freedom of expression.
Schools, according to their twisted view, should be able to teach whatever the hell the principle WANTS to teach, whether it is scientifically valid or not.
That is not education. That is called BRAINWASHING. That is the opposite of trying to teach children to think for themselves, which is how new science gets done when the younger generation grows up and they become scientists themselves, get their Phd's and learn something new about the world.
If it were left up to the brainwashing set, that would never happen because the last thing in the world they would want is to question the brainwashing and wonder about how things came about all on their own.
That is their goal, and it is fortunate they will NEVER achieve it. Not if I can help it.
12 Sep 14
Originally posted by C HessHe has a point, if there was this alleged 'intelligent designer', it would seem to follow there should have been an even more intelligent being who designed OUR intelligent designer and that path can go on to infinity, an infinite gallery of intelligent designers. That is what he is talking about. Who made God? Of course the usual answer is 'this god has always been there forever and ever' etc.
You're joking right?
I'm sorry, but one has to ask in this place.
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12 Sep 14
Originally posted by RBHILLHere we go again. Doesn't the fact that your body has a three billion letter blueprint demonstrate a creator? No. If there was in your body just one copy of DNA referenced by some cell generator that knew which "code" to read and when, then yes, I'd have to wonder, but basically there are only two types of cells in the entire domain of life: eukaryotic and prokaryotic, and with the exception of a few eukaryotic variations (as far as I know), every single cell in your body has its own copy of DNA, mindlessly copied whenever the cell divides. Think about that. It literally means that every living thing is made of one or both of two basic cell types. Is it really that hard to accept the fact that such cells could evolve naturally? Just two major events in the evolution of life, both of which took a really long time. Everything else, from earth worms to humans are basically made of the same cell stuff. What's more, the human body contains far more bacteria, archaea and fungi cells, than actual human cells. Did we evolve from bacteria? Hell, we are mostly bacteria... and fungi... and archaea... and then a tiny bit human. Basically, we're the kitchen, livingroom and toilet for all of the human microbiome.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/video.php?v=513241702111850&set=vb.443476065755081&type=2&theater
Don't talk about the complexity of animal life as though it proves anything. If each animal stood entirely apart from every other animal, no shared DNA with different cell types, then yes, that would be a strong indication that nature had very little to do with it, but that's not the case though, is it?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiome
12 Sep 14
Originally posted by C HessI am certainly not joking about the fact that video poster's argument leads to the conclusion that god must have been designed.
You're joking right?
I'm sorry, but one has to ask in this place.
Though I am waiting for RBHILL, and the other 'goddidits', to jump in here with the 'that doesn't apply to God because....err....he is God' argument.
Which is about as convincing as the video poster's other arguments.
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12 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rank outsiderI see. 🙂
I am certainly not joking about the fact that video poster's argument leads to the conclusion that god must have been designed.
Though I am waiting for RBHILL, and the other 'goddidits', to jump in here with the 'that doesn't apply to God because....err....he is God' argument.
Which is about as convincing as the video poster's other arguments.
Well, shouldn't be long now.
13 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonhouseIf you want a reference for this I can probably find it, but I can't be bothered to dig it out without a pm. A couple of years ago I read this philosophy paper that someone wrote which claimed that we live in a simulation. The basis for his argument was that because we could be living in a simulation then it is overwhelmingly probable that we do. And if we do then the reality that simulates us must also be in a simulation. And so on ad infinitum. Total bollocks!
He has a point, if there was this alleged 'intelligent designer', it would seem to follow there should have been an even more intelligent being who designed OUR intelligent designer and that path can go on to infinity, an infinite gallery of intelligent designers. That is what he is talking about. Who made God? Of course the usual answer is 'this god has always been there forever and ever' etc.
13 Sep 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtKind of like Zeno's paradox, you can't get to where you are going because you have to go to the halfway point then the next halfway point, etc......
If you want a reference for this I can probably find it, but I can't be bothered to dig it out without a pm. A couple of years ago I read this philosophy paper that someone wrote which claimed that we live in a simulation. The basis for his argument was that because we could be living in a simulation then it is overwhelmingly probable that we do. And ...[text shortened]... eality that simulates us must also be in a simulation. And so on ad infinitum. Total bollocks!