08 Jun 13
Monotheists believe in one god. The ancients believed in multiple gods. Atheists believe in no god(s). My question to Monotheists: If it is possible that one god exists, why is it not possible that there are multiple gods? Just as you ask atheists to prove god does not exist, I ask you to prove that only one god exists.
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by 667joeAn authentic item, by definition of its presence within the human realm,
Monotheists believe in one god. The ancients believed in multiple gods. Atheists believe in no god(s). My question to Monotheists: If it is possible that one god exists, why is it not possible that there are multiple gods? Just as you ask atheists to prove god does not exist, I ask you to prove that only one god exists.
invites well crafted counterfeits and cheap imitations which fool many.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by 667joeWell, God in the Isaiah does tell us the He knows of no other gods. So I think I have to take into account that God Himself can't seem to locate another one.
Monotheists believe in one god. The ancients believed in multiple gods. Atheists believe in no god(s). My question to Monotheists: If it is possible that one god exists, why is it not possible that there are multiple gods? Just as you ask atheists to prove god does not exist, I ask you to prove that only one god exists.
"And you are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Or is there any other Rock ? I do not know of any." (Isaiah 44:8)
God here says in essence "I don't KNOW of any other God like Me."
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Jun 13
5 edits
Because the bible says so is not proof!
I didn't say it was. I just pointed out that I think it is significant.
However, the credibility of the Bible I have to take seriously because of the track record of fulfilled prophecy.
For example, the ruler Cyrus was mentioned by name as a gentile ruler who would be used by God. And this was before he was born ! This is in the same book of Isaiah as I quoted.
See Isaiah 45:1-25 a prophecy naming Cyrus the Medeo Persian king before he was born. And because of this the Jews showed him this scripture while in the Babylonian Captivity after the Persians defeated the Chaldeans, influencing him to allow some of them to return to their land.
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by 667joeThere can only be one Infinite One.
Monotheists believe in one god. The ancients believed in multiple gods. Atheists believe in no god(s). My question to Monotheists: If it is possible that one god exists, why is it not possible that there are multiple gods? Just as you ask atheists to prove god does not exist, I ask you to prove that only one god exists.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Jun 13
4 edits
Originally posted by sonshipThe time of the writing of the book of Isaiah was in the 8th century BC.Because the bible says so is not proof!
I didn't say it was. I just pointed out that I think it is significant.
However, the credibility of the Bible I have to take seriously because of the track record of fulfilled prophecy.
For example, the ruler Cyrus was mentioned [b]by name as a gentile ruler who would be used by God. And ...[text shortened]... ersians defeated the Chaldeans, influencing him to allow some of them to return to their land.[/b]
Cyrus conqueror Babylon in 539 BC
"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!" - 2 Chronicles 36:22-23
"Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid." ' - Isaiah 44:28
"King Cyrus also brought out the articles of the house of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had taken from Jerusalem and put in the temple of his gods; and Cyrus king of Persia brought them out by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah. This is the number of them: thirty gold platters, one thousand silver platters, twenty-nine knives, thirty gold basins, four hundred and ten silver basins of a similar kind, and one thousand other articles. All the articles of gold and silver were five thousand four hundred. All these Sheshbazzar took with the captives who were brought from Babylon to Jerusalem." - Ezra 1:7-11
Cyrus as thrilled when the captive Jews showed that he had been mentioned by name in their prophetic book, in Isaiah.
This is in the same prophetic book in which the God of Israel says that He knows of no other Gods (Isa. 45:5,6) .
So it is something to consider.
08 Jun 13
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipBecause the bible says so is not proof!
I didn't say it was. I just pointed out that I think it is significant.
However, the credibility of the Bible I have to take seriously because of the track record of fulfilled prophecy.
For example, the ruler Cyrus was mentioned [b]by name as a gentile ruler who would be used by God. And ...[text shortened]... ersians defeated the Chaldeans, influencing him to allow some of them to return to their land.[/b]
And this was before he was born !
Wrong 😞
"Chapters 40 to 55 (Second Isaiah or Deutero-Isaiah): [written] by an anonymous author who lived in Babylon near the end of the Babylonian captivity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah
The generals of Astyages, the last king of the Medes, mutinied at Pasargadae and the empire surrendered to the Persian Empire, which conquered Babylon in 539 BC under Cyrus the Great. The unknown second prophet (See Deutero-Isaiah) predicts the coming of Cyrus, (Isaiah 44:28, Isaiah 45:1) who will liberate the Jews from their Babylonian exile and bring them to the promised land. The second Isaiah, 40-55, comes from the late exilic period, about 540 BC. Some scholars believe the reference to Cyrus is a vaticinium ex eventu or "prophecy from the event".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_prophecy
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by 667joe
It also talks about virgin births, resurrections, living in a whale belly, being formed from a rib, talking bushes of fire, the sun not moving,living to be 900 years old, and on and on. Not a reliable source .......uote]
It also talks about virgin births,
It talks about ONE virgin birth, only one.
resurrections,
He who created life has the power and authority to bring life back from the dead. It is reasonable to me.
The first sentence in this book the Bible says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ..."
In other words time, space, matter, probably energy too came into being at the creative act of God. So why could He not bring back from the dead ?
Should He desire to manifest His power in that way, what could stop Him?
living in a whale belly,
An especially "appointed" large fish. And it is possible that Jonah actually died in there. But I do not know for sure.
A few weeks ago I read about a man who was half swallowed by a hippo.
being formed from a rib,
God took the rib and builded it into a woman.
talking bushes of fire,
The bush was on fire but was not burnt up. This was a fitting symbol of the union of God and man. You see thorns and thistles came about for Adam from curse. So a thorn bush may indicate the fallen mankind. The holy flame with which the bush burned yet did not burned up may be allegorical of God coming into union with man.
This could be an allegory of the Son of God coming in the form of the fallen man in the incarnation of Christ. It certainly reminds us that Moses and God were so coordinated.
the sun not moving,
Of all the miracles in the bible this one seems to me to be easier to accept on this side of the discoveries of relativity and curvature of space time.
Since we have heard of black holes and event horizons this matter of the sun appearing stand still seems to me to be the lesser outlandish events that God could cause to happen.
Could He not warp space time so that it appeared that the sun stood still? Could God not warp space time so that it appeared that the sun dial reversed ?
Since Einstein the astronomical miracles of the Bible seem more plausible at the hands of the Creator.
living to be 900 years old,
Longevity until after the flood? Not too hard to believe.
Man started OUT very good you know?
And a better atmosphere and environment and diet too probably.
It may have taken longer for that pristine created humanity to run down.
Not a huge deal to me.
and on and on. Not a reliable source .......
Yes. Romans chapter 7 is your life's story. You know what is good to do yet you do not have the power to carry it out. Very reliable as to how you and I struggle against our sin nature.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by 667joe
Sorry. Not one of your explanations merits serious discussion. You, sir are very good at deluding yourself!
Sorry. Not one of your explanations merits serious discussion. You, sir are very good at deluding yourself!
It merits serious enough consideration that the Bible has survived through these several thousands years and is still a best seller.
Whoever created the universe has unlimited authority and power. Sorry you're too dense to comprehend that.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
08 Jun 13
4 edits
Just a few more candidates for supernatural prophecy and fulfillment.
Of course some modern scholars cannot believe that Daniel wrote Daniel because of the accuracy of prophecies. The same has occurred in skeptical circles concerning the authorship of other books.
Copied with permission from The Christian Think tank.
http://www.christianthinktank.com/proffill.html
With that in mind, I will list many of the non-messianic prophecy/fulfillment pairs here, and later come back through and analyze according to the above program. (Format is P: prophecy verse and F: fulfillment verse.) Some of these may be questionable, and as I study through these, I will try to discuss any problems that arise.
1.Isaac's birth, [P: Gen 15.4; 17.19, 21; 18:10,14 and F: Gen 21.1-3]
2.Jacob and Esau's births[P: Gen 25.19-23 and F: Gen 25.24-26]
3.Samson's birth [P: Judg 13.2-5 and F: Judg 13.24]
4.Samuel's birth [P: 1 Sam 1.17-18 and F: I Sam 1.20]
5.Birth of the Shunammite woman's son [P: 2 Kings 4.16 and F: 2 Kings 4.17]
6.John the Baptist's birth [P: Lk 1.13-17 and F: Lk 1.57-64]
7.Jesus' birth [P: Lk 1.26-33 and F: Lk 2.4-7]
8.The coastal city of Tyre to be captured by Nebuchadnezzar [P: Ezek 26.7; F: history (source later)]
9.The island city of Tyre to be scrapped and made flat, like the top of a rock [P: Ezek 26.4, 14; 28.1-10 and F: history-Alex the Great (source later)]
10.Both cities of Tyre to become a place for the spreading of nets [P: Exek 26.14 and F: history]
11.Both cities of Tyre to have their stones and timbers thrown into the sea [P: Zech 9.3-4 and F: history-Alex the G (source later)]
12.Neither of the cities of Tyre to be rebuilt [P: Exek 26.14 and F: history (source later)]
13.Jericho to fall on the seventh day at the hands of Joshua [P: Josh 6.1-5 and F: Josh 6.20]
14.Rebuilder of Jericho to lose two of his sons when Jericho was rebuilt [P: Josh 6.26 and F: I Kings 16.34]
15.Ninevah to be destroyed[P: Nah 1.3,6 and F: history (source later)]
16.Ninevah's destruction to be partially due to a mighty overflowing of the Tigris River [P: Nah 1.8 and F: history (source later)]
17.Ninevah's overthrow by attackers wearing red colors [P: Nah 2.3 and F: history (sources later)]
18.For Jerusalem to be spared from invasion by the alliance of the Northern Kingdom and Syria [P: Is 7.1-10 and F: Is 7.1 et. al. ]
19.For Jerusalem to the spared from invasion by the Assyrians [P: Is 37.33-35 and F: Is 37.36-37]
20.For Jerusalem to be destroyed by the Babylonians [P: Is 3.8; Jer 11.9; 26.18; Mic 3.12 and F: Lam 2.7; 2 Chron 36.19]
21.For the temple of Solomon to suffer destruction [P: I Kings 9.7-9; Ps 79.1; Jer 7.11-14; 26:18; Ezek 7.21-22; 24.21; Mic 3.12 and F: 2 Chron 36]
22.The temple vessels to be carried to Babylon and later returned to Jerusalem [P: Jer 28.3 and F: 2 Kings 25.14-15; 2 Chron 36.18; Ezra 1.7-11]
23.Jerusalem to be rebuilt by the Jews after 70 years in Babylonian captivity [P: Is 44.28; Jer 25.11-12; 29.10 and F: Ezra 1.1-4]
24.For the rebuilding of Jerusalem to be during times of 'trouble' [P: Dan 9.25 and F: Ezra 4-5; Neh 2.6]
25.The walls to be rebuild 483 years prior to the crucifixion of the Messiah [P: Dan 9.26 and F: history (sources and discussion later)]
26.Joshua and Caleb to enter Canaan after a period of 40 years [P: Num 14.24, 30 and F: Josh 3.7, 17; 14.6-12]
27.Sisera to be defeated by a woman [P: Judge 4.9 and F: Judg 4.21]
28.Hophni and Phinehas to die on the same day [P: 1 Sam 2.34 and F: I Sam 4.11]
29.The Priesthood to be taken from the line of Eli [P: I Sam 2.27-36 and F: I Sam 3.11-14]
30.Saul to become Israel's first king and save them from the Philistines [P: I Sam 9.15-16 and F: I Sam 11, 14]
31.Saul's kingdom to be terminated [P: I Sam 13.14; 15.28; 24.20 and F: 2 Sam 3.1; 5.1-3]
32.Saul to die in battle on a specific day [P: I Sam 28.19 and F: I Sam 31.1-6]
33.The sword to plague David's house [P: 2 Sam 12.10-12 and F: 2 Sam 13.28-29; 16.21-22]
34.Jeroboam's dynasty to be destroyed [P: Kings 14:10-11and F: 1 Kings 15:27-28]
35.Ahab to be victorious over the Syrians [P: I Kings 20:28 and F: 1 Kings 20:29-30]
36.Ahab to die in battle for killing Naboth [p: 1 Kings 21:19; 22:17 and F: 1 Kings 22:37]
37.The dogs would lick Ahab's blood from his chariot [P: 1 Kings 21:19 and F: 1 Kings 22:38]
38.Jezebel to be eaten by wild dogs [P: 1 Kings 21:23; 2 Kings 9:10 and F: 2 Kings 9:35]
39.Naaman to recover from his leprosy [P: 2 Kings 5:3, 8, 10 and F: 2 Kings 5:14]
40.The starving citizens of Samaria to enjoy an abundance of food in 24 hours [P: 2 Kings 7:1 and F: 2 Kings 7:16-17]
41.An arrogant aide of king Ahab to see this miracle, but not eat of the food [P:2 Kings 7:2, 19 and F: 2 Kings 7:17, 20]
42.A Syrian king (Hazael) not to recover from his sickness [P: 2 Kings 8.10 and F: 2 Kings 8:15]
43.Jehu to have four generations upon the throne of Israel [P: 2 Kings 10:30 and F: 2 Kings 15:12]
44.Jehu's dynasty to then be destroyed after 4 generations [P: Hos 1.4 and F: 2 Kings 15:8-12]
45.Joash to defeat the Syrians on three occasions [P: 2 Kings 13:18-l9 and F: 2 Kings 13:25]
46.Jehoram to suffer with an intestinal disease because of his sin2 [P: Chron. 21:15 and F: 2 Chron. 21: 18-19
47.Amaziah to die for his idolatry [P: 2 Chron. 25:16 and F: 2 Chron. 25:20, 22, 27]
48.Sennacherib not to invade Jerusalem [P: Isa. 37:33-35 and F: Isa. 37:36-37]
49.Sennacherib to fall by the sword in his own land [P:Isa. 37:7 and F: Isa. 37:37-38]
50.Hezekiah to be healed of a fatal disease [P: Isa. 38:5 and F: Isa. 38:9]
51.Jehoahaz to never return to Judah, but to die in his Egyptian captivity [P: Jer. 22:10-12 and F: 2 Kings 23:33-34]
52. Josiah to burn the decayed bones of Jeroboam's pagan priests upon the false altar Jeroboam had constructed [P: I Kings 13:1-3 and F: 2 Kings 23:~6]
53.Jehoiachin to be captured by Nebuchadnezzar [P: Jer 22.25 and F: 2 Kings 24:15]
54.A false prophet named Hananiah to die within a year [P: Jer 28:15-16 and F: Jer. 28:17]
55.Zedekiah to be captured by Nebuchadnezzar [P:Jer 21.7 and F: Jer. 52:8-9]
56.Nebuchadnezzar to win over the Egyptians at Carchemish [P: Jer 46 and F: testimony of history]
57.Nebuchadnezzar to invade Egypt [P: Jer. 43:9-13; 46:26; Ezek. 29:19-20 and F: history]
58.Nebuchadnezzar to be reduced to an animal for his pride [P: Dan. 4:19-27 and F: Dan. 4:28-37]
59.Belshazzar to have his kingdom removed from him [P: Dan. 5:5, 25-28 and F😀an. 5:30]
60.Cyrus to allow the Jews to go back and rebuild Jerusalem [P: Isa. 44:28 and F: Ezra 1:1-2]
61.Alexander the Great to conquer Greece and establish a world empire [P: Dan. 2:32-39; 7:6;8:5-8, 21; 11:3 and F: history]
62.Alexander to defeat the Persians [P: Dan. 8:5-8 and F: history]
63.Alexander to die suddenly and his kingdom to be divided into four parts [P😀an. 8:8, 22;11:4 and F: history]
64.Egypt to experience seven years of plenty and seven years of famine [P: Gen. 41:l-7,17-24; 45:6, 11 and F: Gen. 41:47-48, 53-57; 47:13, 20]
65.Egypt to host Israel for 400 years and afflict them [P: Gen. 15:13 and F: Exod. 12:40; Acts 7:6]
66.Israel to leave Egypt with great "plunder" [P: Gen 15.14 with F: Ex 12.35-36]
67.The Northern kingdom of Israel to be carried off into Assyrian captivity [P: I Kings 14.15-16; Hos 1.5; 10.1,6 and F: 2 Kings 17.6-7, 22-23]
68.The Captivity of the Northern Kingdom would happen 65 years after the Isaiah/Ahaz meeting [P: Is 7.8 and F: 2 Kings 17.24]
69.Length of the Babylonian captivity would be 70 years [P: Jer 25.11; 29.10 and F: Dan 9.2]
70.Egypt to defeat Israel at Megiddo [P: Jer. 2:16-17, 19,36-37 and F: 2 Kings 23:29-35]
71.Egypt to stumble and fall before Babylon at Carchemish [P: Jer. 46:5-6, 10-12 and F: history]
72.Egypt to be invaded by Nebuchadnezzar [P: Jer. 43:7-13; 46:13-26 and F: history]
73.Babylon to expand under Nebuchadnezzar [P: Hab. 1:5-10 and F: history]
74.Babylon to defeat the Egyptians at Carchemish [P: Jer. 46 and F: history]
75.Babylon to defeat the Assyrians [P: Nahum and F: history]
76.Babylon to be defeated by the Medes and Persians [P: Isa. 13:17; Jer. 5l:ll and F: Dan. 5]
77.Three world powers to follow Babylon (Persia, Greece, Rome): [P: Dan. 2, 7 and history]
78.Persia to consist of an alliance between two peoples (the Medes and Persians) [P: Dan. 8:14, 20 and F: history]
79.Persia to defeat the Babylonians [P: Dan.2:39; 7:5 and F😀an. 5]
80.Persia to be defeated by the Greeks [P: Dan. 8:5-8, 21-22 and F:history]
81.Greece to be invaded by Persia [P: Dan. 11:2 and F: history]
82.Alexander the Great to conquer Greece and establish a world empire [P: Dan. 2:32-39; 7:6; 8:5-8, 21; 11:3 and F: history]
83.Greece to defeat the Persians [P: Dan 8.5-8 with F: history]
84.Greece to be divided into four parts after Alexander's death [P: Dan. 8:8, 22;11:4 and F:history]
85. Rome to defeat the Greeks [P😀an. 2:40; 7:7;11:18-19 and F: history]
Funny graphics unintentional.