1. Joined
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    20 Apr '07 18:521 edit
    so if i dont accept christ or believe in god i will spend eternity in hell, right? so, not only is god refusing me entry in heaven and so denying me an eternity of happiness, but he sends me to a place where i will be tortured for ever and ever as well. doesnt that seem incredible harsh... wouldn't it be enough just to say no at the gates of heaven and let me spend eternity knowing i made a mistake and i will never enter paradise... but to send me to hell as well.... wow! this man is one mean mother!!! ...and you want me to devote my life to that!!!... and some even say god is love!!!
  2. Joined
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    20 Apr '07 19:37
    You're missing the point.
    It's not God who refuses you entry heaven, it's yourself.
    It's not God who sends you to hell, it's yourself.
    It's not God who has you tortured forever, it's yourself.
    Because you do not WANT to be in heaven. Its that easy.
  3. Donationbbarr
    Chief Justice
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    20 Apr '07 20:24
    Originally posted by Flower04
    You're missing the point.
    It's not God who refuses you entry heaven, it's yourself.
    It's not God who sends you to hell, it's yourself.
    It's not God who has you tortured forever, it's yourself.
    Because you do not WANT to be in heaven. Its that easy.
    What if I don't want to reside for eternity with God and I don't want to suffer for eternity either? What if my choice is to simply cease to exist at the time of my death? Anyway, God set up the 'forced choice' scenario; he determined that failure to love him would result in eternal torment, so it is God that sends you to hell. If I come to you on the street and say "either you love me or I'll shoot you", then your choice not to love me doesn't mean it's your fault that you get shot.
  4. RDU NC
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    20 Apr '07 21:07
    Originally posted by bbarr
    What if I don't want to reside for eternity with God and I don't want to suffer for eternity either? What if my choice is to simply cease to exist at the time of my death? Anyway, God set up the 'forced choice' scenario; he determined that failure to love him would result in eternal torment, so it is God that sends you to hell. If I come to you on the stree ...[text shortened]... t you", then your choice not to love me doesn't mean it's your fault that you get shot.
    let's break it down even more.

    you tell your son he better obey you, if he doesn't you'll spank him. he disobeys. you spank him. it's your fault. not his. he knew the consequences but decided to go against the grain anyway.

    the street sign says one way. the police say that if you go the wrong way, they'll give you a ticket. you go the wrong way. they give you a ticket. it's the police' fault. you knew the consequences but decided to go against the grain anyway.

    point: do the stakes matter?
  5. Joined
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    20 Apr '07 21:15
    Originally posted by Flower04
    You're missing the point.
    It's not God who refuses you entry heaven, it's yourself.
    It's not God who sends you to hell, it's yourself.
    It's not God who has you tortured forever, it's yourself.
    Because you do not WANT to be in heaven. Its that easy.
    thats not true, it is god who has set up this choice that i must make...
  6. Joined
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    20 Apr '07 21:35
    How do you define force? The decision is heavily stacked in favor of believing, but that doesn't force you to believe. Whether you think it is fair or not is a valid question, but an unfair choice doesn't mean there is no choice.
  7. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
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    20 Apr '07 21:41
    Originally posted by Flower04
    You're missing the point.
    It's not God who refuses you entry heaven, it's yourself.
    It's not God who sends you to hell, it's yourself.
    It's not God who has you tortured forever, it's yourself.
    Because you do not WANT to be in heaven. Its that easy.
    Can people in hell choose to leave and go to heaven?
  8. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    20 Apr '07 21:45
    Originally posted by Big Mac
    let's break it down even more.

    you tell your son he better obey you, if he doesn't you'll spank him. he disobeys. you spank him. it's your fault. not his. he knew the consequences but decided to go against the grain anyway.

    the street sign says one way. the police say that if you go the wrong way, they'll give you a ticket. you go the wrong way. they g ...[text shortened]... consequences but decided to go against the grain anyway.

    point: do the stakes matter?
    The street sign says one way. The police say they will beat up anyone who violates that law. The police catch you going the other way, pull you from your vehicle by force, and administer a vicious beatdown with their nightsticks until you are dead. Are the police still blameless?
  9. Joined
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    20 Apr '07 21:46
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Can people in hell choose to leave and go to heaven?
    From my understanding, no. You will burn for all enternity, which implies you have no choice.
  10. Joined
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    20 Apr '07 21:531 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    The street sign says one way. The police say they will beat up anyone who violates that law. The police catch you going the other way, pull you from your vehicle by force, and administer a vicious beatdown with their nightsticks until you are dead. Are the police still blameless?
    Does the law permit police to beat up anyone who violates a one way sign? If so, please describe that law. If the law allows the possibility of death, then they can't be blamed by law. Perhaps by your moral code, but not by government law.
  11. RDU NC
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    20 Apr '07 22:00
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    The street sign says one way. The police say they will beat up anyone who violates that law. The police catch you going the other way, pull you from your vehicle by force, and administer a vicious beatdown with their nightsticks until you are dead. Are the police still blameless?
    that is not the stated consequence of breaking the rule. just because they choose to do so does not make it the right choice.

    as with sin, the stated consequence, ACCORDING TO MY WORLD VIEW, is death and hell. therefore, it is not going beyond parameters to do so.

    so to answer your question, no. the police are to blame. but god is not since he stated the penalty before hand.
  12. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    20 Apr '07 22:38
    And its not even that god came down and said, "These are the rules. Follow them or else." He is only rumored to have said that. If god came down, made his presence unambiguously known, and laid out the rules from his own mouth for all to hear, then maybe we could be held accountable for not following them.
  13. RDU NC
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    20 Apr '07 22:42
    Originally posted by rwingett
    And its not even that god came down and said, "These are the rules. Follow them or else." He is only rumored to have said that. If god came down, made his presence unambiguously known, and laid out the rules from his own mouth for all to hear, then maybe we could be held accountable for not following them.
    (As Scotty has said, I should start using proper grammar and capitalization.)

    So...

    The Bible has Jesus claiming that even if one raised from the dead, people would not believe of their own volition. Again, as a non-free-will Christian, I don't think belief is possible without the previous presence of a new heart wrought by the Holy Spirit.
  14. Joined
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    21 Apr '07 01:22
    Originally posted by rwingett
    And its not even that god came down and said, "These are the rules. Follow them or else." He is only rumored to have said that. If god came down, made his presence unambiguously known, and laid out the rules from his own mouth for all to hear, then maybe we could be held accountable for not following them.
    Ever hear of Jesus?
  15. Joined
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    21 Apr '07 01:25
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    so if i dont accept christ or believe in god i will spend eternity in hell, right? so, not only is god refusing me entry in heaven and so denying me an eternity of happiness, but he sends me to a place where i will be tortured for ever and ever as well. doesnt that seem incredible harsh... wouldn't it be enough just to say no at the gates of heaven and ...[text shortened]... n mother!!! ...and you want me to devote my life to that!!!... and some even say god is love!!!
    It's simple, you just don't understand the bible story otherwise you wouldn't believe that way.
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