27 Jun 11
3 edits
Trinity
Definition: The central doctrine of religions of Christendom. According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Jehovah. Not a Bible teaching.
What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?
The New Encyclopaedia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are Greek philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
clearly, neither Christ nor Paul mentioned the doctrine, it did not appear as church dogma until the fourth century, it was assimilated through Helenistic philosophy, itself a manifestation of earlier religions, expressed in Greek Philosophical terms not found in scripture and misapplied to God. Now if it is not to be found in scripture, unmentioned by either Paul or Christ, uses expressions derived from Hellenistic philosophy, from whence did it come?
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI vote for Satan the father of the "Lie" as that's all the trinity is. It was never real by any of the pagan nations that originally formulated it and it is still not real by the so called Christian religions that demand it to be accepted by their members.
Trinity
Definition: The central doctrine of religions of Christendom. According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emp ...[text shortened]... r Paul or Christ, uses expressions derived from Hellenistic philosophy, from whence did it come?
27 Jun 11
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75One can make the case that while not being an explicit doctrine, it is inferred from scripture, however that is besides the point. It needs Greek philosophical language and concepts to express its nature, this in itself is highly suspect, for Christianity was not born from a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses, but Judaism, which is strictly monotheistic. I agree its a porky pie.
I vote for Satan the father of the "Lie" as that's all the trinity is. It was never real by any of the pagan nations that originally formulated it and it is still not real by the so called Christian religions that demand it to be accepted by their members.
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt's for sure the Jews don't accept it....Never did even to this day.
One can make the case that while not being an explicit doctrine, it is inferred from scripture, however that is besides the point. It needs Greek philosophical language and concepts to express its nature, this in itself is highly suspect, for Christianity was not born from a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses, but Judaism, which is strictly monotheistic. I agree its a porky pie.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation6.html
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are definining Modalism, which is a definition used by a cult of
Trinity
Definition: The central doctrine of religions of Christendom. According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emp ...[text shortened]... r Paul or Christ, uses expressions derived from Hellenistic philosophy, from whence did it come?
Christianity and not the true defintion of the Christian Trinity. The
trinity consists of three persons in one God. There are no modes.
I have already written of the true origin of the Christian Trinity in another
thread. I will repeat it below:
The word "Trinity", as well as the distinction between "one God" and
"three persons," was first formulated by Tertullian. He wrote explicitly of
"a trinity of one divinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian
Tertullian is said to be born in 160 A.D. So the New Encyclopedia
Britannica is in error and the person writing this article for them is
ignorant of the facts.
The person writing the article for the New Catholic Encyclopedia is
also ignorant of the writings of Tertullian. And the others you quoted
are apparently also ignorant of the truth and the origin of the the
word "trinity" and its ideas from Tertullian who used the ideas from
the Holy Bible and the mention of the "Godhead" to come up with the
new Latin word "Trinitas" as a short way to discribe these ideas.
It is strange that a free on-line Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, should be the
only one to get it right out of all these expensive sources quoted.
27 Jun 11
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsi have described the Athanasian Creed, which, according to wikipedia states the following.
You are definining Modalism, which is a definition used by a cult of
Christianity and not the true defintion of the Christian Trinity. The
trinity consists of three persons in one God. There are no modes.
I have already written of the true origin of the Christian Trinity in another
thread. I will repeat it below:
The word "Trinity", as well as th should be the
only one to get it right out of all these expensive sources quoted.
Widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church and most liturgical Protestant denominations. You termed it used by 'a cult'.
You have also failed to answer the main points, that the trinity, in order to express itself makes use of Hellenistic philosophical terms not found in the Bible. You have also failed to mention why the doctrine itself is not explicitly stated in scripture. You have also failed to state why Paul and Jesus never mention it. You have also failed to explain why it took until the fourth century to be adopted into church dogma? you have failed to state why in the Hebrew portion of scripture, from which Christianity arose from, there is no mention of it. All in all, its an epic failure.
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehttp://www.theopedia.com/Modalism
i have described the Athanasian Creed, which, according to wikipedia states the following.
Widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church and most liturgical Protestant denominations. You termed it used by 'a cult'.
You have also failed to answer the main points, that ...[text shortened]... om which Christianity arose from, there is no mention of it. All in all, its an epic failure.
Theopedia An Encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity
Modalism
From Theopedia
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.
Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by RJHindswhat is it about this statement that you dont understand?
http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism
Theopedia An Encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity
Modalism
From Theopedia
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons ...[text shortened]... is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]
According to the Athanasian Creed
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou did not quote the Athanasian Creed.
what is it about this statement that you dont understand?
According to the Athanasian Creed
The following is the Athanasian Creed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
That is the Athanasian Creed.
It says nothing about modes.
27 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieUsing the ideas and concepts the " philosophical thought" of a culture in and of itself does not negate the truthfulness of an idea. Paul did this very thing in his writings such as on Mars Hill. Otherwise we should just throw away 90% of the New Testament. All roads lead to Rome at that time and God knew this.
i have described the Athanasian Creed, which, according to wikipedia states the following.
Widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church and most liturgical Protestant denominations. You termed it used by 'a cult'.
You have also failed to answer the main points, that ...[text shortened]... om which Christianity arose from, there is no mention of it. All in all, its an epic failure.
Manny
27 Jun 11
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsI just want to mention that the word Catholic can be replaced with universal for those who get hung up on the word Catholic.
You did not quote the Athanasian Creed.
The following is the Athanasian Creed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish ...[text shortened]... e faithfully he cannot be saved.
That is the Athanasian Creed.
It says nothing about modes.
Manny
28 Jun 11
Originally posted by RJHindsUnbelieveable that anyone would fall for this stuff. Very, very sad. And this is the truth that sets ones free? I don't think so!!!!
You did not quote the Athanasian Creed.
The following is the Athanasian Creed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish ...[text shortened]... e faithfully he cannot be saved.
That is the Athanasian Creed.
It says nothing about modes.