1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    12 Nov '05 06:04
    Checkbaiter linked this essay recently:

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=32893

    Please notice how much emphasis the essay places on human conscience and pain and pleasure as they relate to morality and whether we should judge God. I say this essay, as written, supports my beliefs in hedonism - that pain is evil and pleasure good - and opposes the Christian view that what God says is what's moral simply because God said it. Does anyone disagree?
  2. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    12 Nov '05 06:431 edit
    Hedonism must surely be the bedrock of the human Weltanschauung.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Nov '05 05:19
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Checkbaiter linked this essay recently:

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=32893

    Please notice how much emphasis the essay places on human conscience and pain and pleasure as they relate to morality and whether we should judge God. I say this essay, as written, supports my beliefs in hedonism - that pain is evil and ...[text shortened]... tian view that what God says is what's moral simply because God said it. Does anyone disagree?
    Have you read Epicurus?
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    13 Nov '05 05:37
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Have you read Epicurus?
    No.
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Nov '05 05:541 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    No.
    His philosophy was based on a "pleasure/pain calculus." His hedonism was not about gluttony or indulgence per se. I think you would enjoy reading him; also, there's a good book on Epicurus by a guy named Avraam Kohen (I can't recall the title offhand).

    I call this quatrain by Omar Khayyam "a slightly extravagant Epicurus":

    A book of verses underneath the bough,
    a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou
    beside me in the wilderness--Ah!
    wilderness were paradise enow!

    Epicurus might have asked: "What are you doing in the wilderness? Don't you have a pleasant garden to enjoy?" And he might have said: "Well, wine is good if you can get it without too much trouble--and perhaps a little cheese..."

    I think you'd like Epicurus.
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Nov '05 06:341 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Checkbaiter linked this essay recently:

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=32893

    Please notice how much emphasis the essay places on human conscience and pain and pleasure as they relate to morality and whether we should judge God. I say this essay, as written, supports my beliefs in hedonism - that pain is evil and ...[text shortened]... tian view that what God says is what's moral simply because God said it. Does anyone disagree?
    Pain and pleasure are just feelings, nerve endings reacting to
    something. Pleasure and pain though bound to good and bad
    are not true markers of good or bad. You can get pleasure
    out of pain, you can have good things happen because of pain,
    you can die because something that is pleasurable too. Good
    and bad, are given to us by God mainly because of the results
    of those actions, not just because of what God says, though
    that would be enough.
    Kelly
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    13 Nov '05 06:37
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Pain and pleasure are just feelings, nerve endings reacting to
    something. Pleasure and pain though bound to good and bad
    are not true markers of good or bad. You can get pleasure
    out of pain, you can have good things happen because of pain,
    you can die because something that is pleasurable too. Good
    and bad, are given to us by God mainly because of the ...[text shortened]... sults
    of those actions, not just because of what God says, though
    that would be enough.
    Kelly
    Do you agree with the statement I made in the first post?
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Nov '05 07:49
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Do you agree with the statement I made in the first post?
    I do not agree that pain is evil and pleasure is good, that is too
    simplistic. Those are just two different extremes in feelings nothing
    more, and feelings are not necessarily a measure of good or evil.
    Kelly
  9. Colorado
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    13 Nov '05 08:02
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not agree that pain is evil and pleasure is good, that is too
    simplistic. Those are just two different extremes in feelings nothing
    more, and feelings are not necessarily a measure of good or evil.
    Kelly
    True, often times people pursue evil for the temporary pleasure it offers.
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    13 Nov '05 09:58
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not agree that pain is evil and pleasure is good, that is too
    simplistic. Those are just two different extremes in feelings nothing
    more, and feelings are not necessarily a measure of good or evil.
    Kelly
    I am referring to this:

    I say this essay, as written, supports my beliefs in hedonism - that pain is evil and pleasure good - and opposes the Christian view that what God says is what's moral simply because God said it. Does anyone disagree?

    I don't think I could have written this any clearer. How come you missed this question twice?
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    13 Nov '05 09:59
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    True, often times people pursue evil for the temporary pleasure it offers.
    What sort of evil? I am certain the evil you refer to is evil in your estimation because pain is increased for someone. When I talk about pain and pleasure, I do not refer to any individual's pain and pleasure but the total among all beings that can experience such things.
  12. Standard memberPalynka
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    14 Nov '05 16:05
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I am referring to this:

    [b]I say this essay, as written, supports my beliefs in hedonism - that pain is evil and pleasure good - and opposes the Christian view that what God says is what's moral simply because God said it. Does anyone disagree?


    I don't think I could have written this any clearer. How come you missed this question twice?[/b]
    I don't understand if you mean disagreement with the idea in itself or disagreement with the notion that it opposes the Christian view.
  13. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    15 Nov '05 06:38
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I don't understand if you mean disagreement with the idea in itself or disagreement with the notion that it opposes the Christian view.
    I am asking about whether the essay assumes that hedonistic definitions of good and evil are correct as opposed to defining good and evil as what God says.

    By the way, I linked the thread on RHP in which the essay was linked to, not the link to the essay itself. I'll correct that now:

    http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=364&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    I am not asking about your beliefs about good and evil. I am asking you to determine the implied definitions of good and evil in the essay.

    For example:

    "If a human artist or employer made children suffer so that something immensely impressive or valuable could come to pass, we would put him in prison. Why then should we excuse God for causing such undeserved pain, no matter how wonderful the ultimate result may be?"

    This is a very valid point that should to be taken to heart.


    This suggests that if God caused such pain, he would be doing evil. Therefore the pain is what makes the act evil; not that it opposes God's will. If good is defined as that which is in accordance with God's will, then God would be doing good if he tortured children. The essay suggests that this is not the case.
  14. Colorado
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    16 Nov '05 03:41
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    What sort of evil? I am certain the evil you refer to is evil in your estimation because pain is increased for someone. When I talk about pain and pleasure, I do not refer to any individual's pain and pleasure but the total among all beings that can experience such things.
    So you look at things from a utilitarian perspective?
  15. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Nov '05 06:01
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    So you look at things from a utilitarian perspective?
    I do.
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