Parable of the king and debt

Originally posted by Eladar

As I read through this I see a recurring message: this can't say what it appears to say because of what I believe the Bible says in other places.

"... money solves everything" - Ecclesiastes 10:19

No need to read anything else. There's the Bible's teaching.

New American Standard Bible
Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything.

King James Bible
A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
A feast is prepared for laughter, and wine makes life happy, and money is the answer for everything.

Why study anymore? Right?

Originally posted by sonship

As I read through this I see a recurring message: this can't say what it appears to say because of what I believe the Bible says in other places.

[b] "Money solves everything" - Ecclesiastes 10:19

No need to read anything else. There's the Bible's teaching.

New American Standard Bible
Men prepare a meal for ...[text shortened]... makes life happy, and money is the answer for everything.

Why study anymore? Right?[/b]

That's right, I lifted a single verse. You are so insightful.

Originally posted by Eladar
That's right, I lifted a single verse. You are so insightful.

And you also.

Originally posted by sonship
And you also.

Exactly.

It seems to me that we should take Jesus' parables as truth, this one included.

It is not only in this parable but alsoin the Lord's Prayer.

If we are to be forgiven we must forgive.

Originally posted by Eladar

Exactly.

First, let me get the unhelpful sarcasm out of the way.
I apologize to you and to the readers for having to read unhelpful sarcasm that I wrote.

To continue in a serious way ..

It seems to me that we should take Jesus' parables as truth, this one included.

I do take it absolutely as true.
I wish to walk in the light of its truth.

It is not only in this parable but alsoin the Lord's Prayer.

I can find other places that teach the same thing as well.

I did not at any time say the teaching of the need for the believers to forgive one another is not true.

Can you point to me writing that the teaching was not true?
Can you point to me writing that the teaching should not be taken seriously?

I did say that the punishment that the unforgiving servant receives is temporary and dispensational. That is what I said.

But I did not say there was no need for a Christian to learn to forgive offenses.

If we are to be forgiven we must forgive.

That is true in terms of the reward of the kingdom of the heavens.

And before we get to this parable of Matthew 18 Jesus already said as much in chapter 5.

"Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." (Matt. 5:7)

And James 2:13 teaches the same thing - mercy shown to Christians because we showed mercy.

" For judgement is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13)

I am confirming the teaching and not denying it.
But in confirming it I am taking into account that the judgment seat of Christ is pertaining to reward or loss of reward to the one eternally redeemed.

Originally posted by Eladar
?...He was saved from his sins but then lost his salvation....

Was Jesus correct when he then said this is how it is with us and God?

You are adding to the words of Christ and quite deliberately so.
Jesus did NOT say that the man was forgiven of his sins and then lost his salvation, it is YOU who are saying this.

I think I have the measure of you and your intent in this forum.

Originally posted by divegeester
You are adding to the words of Christ and quite deliberately so.
Jesus did NOT say that the man was forgiven of his sins and then lost his salvation, it is YOU who are saying this.

I think I have the measure of you and your intent in this forum.

So what debt of ours has God forgiven?

I am about to quote a long passage from the book of Hebrews. It shows that once one has God's life and is a son of the begetting Father, the begetting Father will do many things to perfect that son.

This perfecting in certainly in the church age.
But it can extend to the coming millennial kingdom age as well, BEFORE the eternal age.

I say every line should be read carefully of Hebrews 12:4-14.

"You have not resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, (v.4)

And you have completely forgotten the exhortation which reasons with you as with sons, 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when reproved by Him. (v.5) [b]

The Lord, the Father will [b]discipline those whom He has made His sons.

"For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (v.6)

The Father will scourge for perfection and discipline the son to whom He has granted eternal life.

"It is for discipline that you endure; For God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the father does not discipline?" (v.7)

It should be no surprise that the Divine Father would discipline His sons in His maturing them. The scope is wide and may include even severe scourging after Christ comes back per Matthew 18:35

"But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (v.8)

No son of the Father can go without some amount of discipline.
To not receive discipline from the loving Father would not be a good sign.
It might indicate that you are not in a life relationship with God.

"Furthermore we have had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners and we repected them; shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?" (v.9)

Even if God should scourge a son of His during the millennial kingdom, that son should still recognize that this is for his perfecting, maturity, education, and conformity to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son.

The unforgiving servant had to be punished until he learned his lesson.

" For they discipline for a few days as it seemed good to them; but He, for what is profitable that we might partake of His holiness." (v.10)

Both in the church age and in the age following the second coming of Jesus, discipline of the sons is that they might partake of the Father's holiness.

"Now no discipline at the present time seems to be a matter of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been exercised by it." (v.11)

Both in the church age and in the kingdom age, discipline is that sons of God may yield the fruit of righteousness. The servant tormented until he repaid what he owed, was for him to be made righteous through and through, holy through and through.

He actually afterwards will be very thankful to the wise Father.

You should get the point by now. I only include that holiness, subjectively, through and through, is needed to see the Lord. So God still has 1,000 years to wrought holiness into many of His underdeveloped children.

"Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord." ( ... (v.14)

Yes, those he loves he disciplines. This does not negate the until you have repaid the debt.

Just because God disciplines his children this does not mean that Satan's children do not go to hell a place of eternal torment.

You seem to be saying all torment is discipline. All are God's children.

Originally posted by Eladar

Yes, those he loves he disciplines. This does not negate the until you have repaid the debt.

I did not say it negated that need. I affirmed rather that the Father's love gives rise to the need to pay a price.

In the church age, paying a price has one flavor.
After Jesus comes back during the millennial time, paying the price will have a different flavor.

You see, if the servant had gone through the "unpleasantness" of forgiving his fellow servant he would not have postponed that unpleasantness to another time.

Now, he still must forgive. But Jesus has returned now. And it will have a different flavor to cooperate to forgive.

For this reason, I as a Christian, and whom am concerned that I meet my Lord with a grudge of unforgiveness still in my heart, utter " Lord, I remember all that you forgave me. Lord by Your grace help me to forgive this person from my heart. Thankyou Lord."

Now, it may not be too much fun for me to pray that way today. But is far, far better than the forgiveness I will have to rendered once Jesus comes back to settle accounts with me.

This settling accounts now, is not for the time BEFORE one became a disciple. It is a settling accounts of life FROM the time one became a Christian.

Just because God disciplines his children this does not mean that Satan's children do not go to hell a place of eternal torment.

After reading this three times and trying to get the meaning, I am sure that the answer is that I agree.

The discipline of God's sons, of course, does not mean that the unbelieving sinner will be lost to eternal punishment.

You seem to be saying all torment is discipline. All are God's children.

No, I am not saying that at all. And I think you missed either one of two things:

1.) You missed that the passage from Hebrews 12 is strictly concerning God's sons. His sons are saved eternally.

2.) Or you miss that all people of the world cannot claim to be God's sons.

The contrast between those who are born of Him and those who are not or not yet born of Him is in verse 8.

"But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."

Not sons means - not born of God, not redeemed of God, not born again, and not able to call God "Father". These people need to become sons through believing into Christ.

By the way, when you are born of a father, you cannot be unborn.
You cannot reverse your being BORN of your earthly father.
Once you are begotten of someone, this cannot be undone or reversed.

Now you may not be on very good terms with your earthly father for a period of time.
But you cannot become - NOT his son.

And a Christian, born of the heavenly Father, cannot become NOT His child. One cannot reverse the born again experience so that he makes himself "unborn".




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Originally posted by sonship

Yes, those he loves he disciplines. This does not negate the until you have repaid the debt.

I did not say it negated that need. I affirmed rather that the Father's love gives rise to the need to pay a price.

In the church age, paying a price has one flavor.
After Jesus comes back during the millennial time, paying the price will hav ...[text shortened]... ld. One cannot reverse the born again experience so that he makes himself "unborn".




.

Born of the heavenly father?

People get pruned and people get grafted. It is not a stagnant relationship.

Originally posted by Eladar
Born of the heavenly father?

People get pruned and people get grafted. It is not a stagnant relationship.

Born of the heavenly father?

Yes.
Before I was born again, at BEST ... at BEST I might refer to God as "Oh God" in not so much of a pure way. Maybe out of fear I might say "Oh God".

After I was born again I could call this God "Abba, my Father" intimately. It is so sweet to go from God as just a Creator of you to God your own "Daddy" - your "Papa".

It is so sweet to move from just "God" .. as maybe a philosophical word of something or Someone objectively "out there" to "Abba Father. My dead Papa. My Abba Father Who has begotten me as one of His dear sons."

People get pruned and people get grafted. It is not a stagnant relationship.

I don't argue contrary to pruning or grafting at all.

Do you think that those who cry out lord lord do not call God abba?

Originally posted by Eladar
Do you think that those who cry out lord lord do not call God abba?

Do you think that those who cry out lord lord do not call God abba?

I quoted to you most of Hebrews 12:5-11. That passage already clearly indicates that sons of the Father, the one they may call at some time Abba Father, are still subject to the discipline of the Lord.

This discipline is wide in scope.
This discipline occurs during the age before Christ's second coming.
But this discipline can also occur in the period of 1,000 years before the eternal age.
That is AFTER Christ's second coming.

I would say this about Matthew 7:21,22. Certainly unbelievers who have rejected Christ will depart from the Lord Jesus. But some who are saved yet as through fire will be told to depart from Him temporarily.

Does the teaching of Matthew 7:21,22 instruct Christians NOT to call "Lord, Lord"?
No it does not.

Does the teaching of Matthew 7:21,22 instruct Christians NOT to call the Father as "Abba Father" ?
No it does not.

Does the teaching of Matthew 7:21,22 advise that it is better NOT to call "Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus, Lord!" or not to call "Father, Abba Father, I love You Abba." ?
No it does not say that it is better not to do that.

The teaching underscores the qualifications for entering into the kingdom of the heavens not the qualifications of receiving eternal life.

The teaching reiterates this:

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:20)

Forgiveness is not an end in itself.
Being born again is not an end in itself.

For His administration on the earth in the coming age and for His government, He will not have any hypocrisy left in His servants. The outward show will not do. The inward reality must be present.

The servant must serve within the track of the will of the Father.
Many a faith healer, many of charlatan, many a "successful" popular evangelist working in his own means will find that he is disqualified from entering into the coming governmental realm of the kingdom of the heavens because of hypocrisy.

The Lord does not tell us not to call on Him. The Lord says that our lived out righteousness must be of the highest standard on earth. So we all the more need Jesus to live in us.

Then we can be saved from the superficial righteousness of the scribes, Pharisees, and play acting religionists. You know you can leave religion. But religion will not easily leave YOU. It is something in our blood it seems.

So we must look to Christ to grow in us so that with Paul we may say -

" I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing." (Gal. 2:20,21)

" Not I, but Christ lives in me. " That is where the Christian needs to grow into.

Originally posted by sonship

Do you think that those who cry out lord lord do not call God abba?

I quoted to you most of [b]Hebrews 12:5-11. That passage already clearly indicates that sons of the Father, the one they may call at some time Abba Father, are still subject to the discipline of the Lord.

This discipline is wide in scope.
This discipline occurs du ...[text shortened]... [/quote]

" Not I, but Christ lives in me. " That is where the Christian needs to grow into.[/b]

The discipline of the Father includes eternal destruction.

Christians need to grow but not all do.