Spirituality
21 Feb 09
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou may not have seen this response:
God infallibly knows that I choose X simply because God “sees” me choose en flagrante. God’s “absolute now” incudes my “relative now”.
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That's the closest yet anyone has got! -KM
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You cannot claim that God infallibly “sees” me choose X, while ...[text shortened]... u are choosing X and knows this eternally. How could he not know. Free will would not stop him.
Your assertion only works here if when God (from its perspective) sees you have done X, then X has been done from your perspective too.
If from my perspective I have not done X then I'd better bloody well do X otherwise your infallible God who saw me do X from its perspective whilst I hadn't done X from mine will be proven wrong if I choose ¬X
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergIf from my perspective I have not done X then I'd better bloody well do X otherwise your infallible God who saw me do X from its perspective whilst I hadn't done X from mine will be proven wrong if I choose ¬X
You may not have seen this response:
Your assertion only works here if when God (from its perspective) sees you have done X, then X has been done from your perspective too.
If from my perspective I have not done X then I'd better bloody well do X otherwise your infallible God who saw me do X from its perspective whilst I hadn't done X from mine will be proven wrong if I choose ¬X
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There is no way that you will not do X because you have "already" freely chosen X in your timeline. The question is not what you will choose but whether you could have possibly chosen anything else at THAT POINT in time. Your timeline may be set in front of you (God's view) but you still have to set it yourself and you will set it by choosing X freely yourself. In a sense you are going to do X but are pre-determined by your own choices (except that doesn't express it adequately)
22 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeister"There is no way that you will not do X because you have "already" freely chosen X in your timeline."
If from my perspective I have not done X then I'd better bloody well do X otherwise your infallible God who saw me do X from its perspective whilst I hadn't done X from mine will be proven wrong if I choose ¬X
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There is no way that you will not do X because you have "already" freely chosen X in your timeline. Th o X but are pre-determined by your own choices (except that doesn't express it adequately)
For my timeline that your god has "seen", if I am (from my perspective) at a point t_0 which is prior to t_1 (the point where your God saw me do X) then if I am free to choose to do X at t_1 then your God could not have seen me do X at t_1 for his seeing that is contingent upon me first making the choice to do it.
The correspondence you make between your gods perspective and mine is ill-defined
Everybody else seems to be telling you the same sort of thing KM
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by Agergthen if I am free to choose to do X at t_1 then your God could not have seen me do X at t_1 for his seeing that is contingent upon me first making the choice to do it.
"There is no way that you will not do X because you have "already" freely chosen X in your timeline."
For my timeline that your god has "seen", if I am (from my perspective) at a point t_0 which is prior to t_1 (the point where your God saw me do X) then if I am free to choose to do X at t_1 then your God could not have seen me do X at t_1 for his seeing tha ...[text shortened]... nd mine is ill-defined
Everybody else seems to be telling you the same sort of thing KM
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So how long do you think God has to wait before he can see t_1?
You do have to make that choice to do X and God's knowledge is contingent on you making it , but for God you have already made it , even if for you it feels like you haven't.
Notice how you have placed God in your timeline and not in an eternal fifth dimension where he belongs. You seem to think that there is some big clock ticking t_0 , t_1, t_2 etc that applies to both you and God and "until" you get to t_1 , God cannot be there because somehow he's stuck in time like you are.
22 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterwrong, I'm assuming, as per your assumption, that your God is looking in at our timeline from his own dimensions (whatever they may be as you refuse to define them) and can see me do what I do at t_0 at the same time as he sees me do X at t_1.
then if I am free to choose to do X at t_1 then your God could not have seen me do X at t_1 for his seeing that is contingent upon me first making the choice to do it.
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So how long do you think God has to wait before he can see t_1?
You do have to make that choice to do X and God's knowledge is co ntil" you get to t_1 , God cannot be there because somehow he's stuck in time like you are.
Again if I've done X from your god's perspective and there is a meaningful correspondence between this frame of reference of God's and my own where I have yet to do X then me doing X is a done deal whereby it is forced.
23 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut the fact that that is what you do actually choose does not mean that there was never another possibility for you.
then it is still the case that there is no possibility that I can refrain from A-ing at time T. There is nothing in your post that demonstrates anything to the contrary.
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The issue is not whether you are able to refrain from A-ing , but whether you ever were ABLE to refrain or not do e to refrain if you want , I just know that you didn't choose to refrain in the end "
Try paying attention to my actual argument, would ya? I have never, ever claimed that the fact that you actually choose A thereby somehow precludes the possibility that you could have refrained from choosing A. For the last time, my argument is that it is the infallibility condition surrounding God's eternal knowledge that precludes your libertarian freedom. Understand the difference?
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by knightmeisterI've already told you I don't know how many times why I think it is contradictory within my own view of time.
I think it is logically contradictory to say that God can enter into and out of time.
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Why ? Think of eternity as a fifth dimension. Like other dimensions it could intersect with lower dimensions , just as 3 dimensions intersects with 2 etc. Ever read Flatland by any chance?
23 Feb 09
2 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloRight!
He heh. I think Murray's character in Groundhog Day does at some "point" in there conclude that he is a god (not THE god he says, but a god nonetheless).
And I am wondering how much KM’s version on “God’s perspective” reduces to somesimilarity with the version of Nietzschean eternal recurrence in Groundhog Day? For example, Murray is able to effect certain changes each day by his own agency (though they do not perdure into the next round)—which is important for that interpretation of the eternal recurrence (which is close to my own; although I do not see it as a reality but more, in Kathleen Higgins’ interpretation, an “existential attitude” ). Under KM’s model, it seems to me that any “tweaks” that God might make would be “forgotten” in God’s “next” viewing of the same moment…
Nevertheless, it was just an attempt to introduce some ironic humor into this thread…
"Wake up, campers! And put your booties on: it's cold outside!" "It's cold outside every day...!"
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by LemonJelloYes , it is contradictory within your own view of time , but your own view of time is your "own view". As we know , time is a strange phenomena and relativity can appear counter-intuitive. So can eternity.
I've already told you I don't know how many times why I think it is contradictory within my own view of time.
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by LemonJelloI understand that for you there is a difference. For me there isn't. God knows that at point T you choose A , that's all there is to it. You admit that the fact you choose A does not exclude free will , so what's your problem.
[b]But the fact that that is what you do actually choose does not mean that there was never another possibility for you.
Try paying attention to my actual argument, would ya? I have never, ever claimed that the fact that you actually choose A thereby somehow precludes the possibility that you could have refrained from choosing A. For the last tim ...[text shortened]... ng God's eternal knowledge that precludes your libertarian freedom. Understand the difference?[/b]
There is no special trick to God knwing choice A , anymore than there is a special trick to you knowing Hitler's choices. It's far simpler than you think.
It appears that God knows choice A before that choice is made , but in reality he doesn't because the word "before" implies that the time frame you live in is the same for God. It's both true to say that until you do it , he can't know it , but the way he experiences you do A is very different from your experience because you are trapped in time.
Let me ask you this. I presume that (theoretically) you would have no problem with God knowing your choice A right in this specific present moment yes?
The question is then , how long would an eternal God have to wait to see this choice A?
You see you could say that he has been and is now watching you right now from all eternity , but still nevertheless you are free right now to choose. He's watching all these present moments just as he is this one. The future and past choices you make may seem static and fixed to you , but for God they are all living breathing and alive , filled with potential and choice. You could say that tomorrow's choice A is actually being made "right now" by you and it's as dynamic and alive as this present moment.
At that very moment you are doing it God doesn't know what you will choose , but then again he's always been there because "waiting" has no meaning for him
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou simply cannot continue to hide behind the old 'my God is irrational'. Either admit that your ideas are wrong or explain it in terms we can understand. I have no problem with it being counter-intuitive but that is simply not what you want to get away with, you want to get away with illogical or self contradictory - relativity is neither.
Yes , it is contradictory within your own view of time , but your own view of time is your "own view". As we know , time is a strange phenomena and relativity can appear counter-intuitive. So can eternity.
23 Feb 09
4 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhere's the beating-your-head-against-the-wall emoticon when you really need it? I've tried, km. God eternally knows I've tried to explain my argument to you (mostly in the other threads). You just don't get it, and apparently I am not making myself clear to you. What more can I do here?
I understand that for you there is a difference. For me there isn't. God knows that at point T you choose A , that's all there is to it. You admit that the fact you choose A does not exclude free will , so what's your problem.
There is no special trick to God knwing choice A , anymore than there is a special trick to you knowing Hitler's choices. I ut then again he's always been there because "waiting" has no meaning for him
You admit that the fact you choose A does not exclude free will , so what's your problem.
My problem, as I keep repeating to you over and over, has to do materially with the supposed infallibility of God's eternal knowledge.
Pretty much your entire post I do not find relevant to my argument (which already fully accommodates your views on God's 'eternal' nature).
Really I should just respond here with "So you don't understand the difference?"
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou simply cannot continue to hide behind the old 'my God is irrational'
You simply cannot continue to hide behind the old 'my God is irrational'. Either admit that your ideas are wrong or explain it in terms we can understand. I have no problem with it being counter-intuitive but that is simply not what you want to get away with, you want to get away with illogical or self contradictory - relativity is neither.
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Which is something that you KNOW I have not said , I said God was eternal , not irrational. The apparent contradiction is because eternity is so unimaginably different from time and 4D that we cannot conceive of how such things can be possible and not be contradictory.