Originally posted by moon1969
Paul chose when he wanted to make distinctions between men and women. That is clear.
And when he did make such distinctions, it was usually less favorable to women. After all, many historians and theologians think Paul was a closet homosexual who really didn't like women. In his defense, it was kind of a anti-women culture back then where women were s ...[text shortened]... hitect of Christianity) was making the adrogenous point. That both men and women can be saved.
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Paul chose when he wanted to make distinctions between men and women. That is clear.
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So you think he was fickle about it ?
I think Paul had no personal preference about the matter whatsoever. His only concern was what was profitable to building up the Christian church. I think his motive, his intention, his thought is totally centered on what was profitible for the spiritual development of these communities called
churches.
That is why we should consider the whole of his writing. Obviously, by classing the distinction of
"male and female" right along with along other social contrasts like
"Jew and Greek", "slave and freeman" he has in mind nullifying oppressive social stratification.
"Don't think you can throw your weight around in the church because you are a Jew. Neither look down your nose on a Jewish brother because you are Greek. Don't cope an attitude because you are a freeman and this other brother is a slave.
And don't be high minded because you happen to be a male and the other disciple is a female."
People usually under estimate the power of prayer. I would rather be a disciple whose petitions and prayers could move the hand of God to effect world events then to be a chatter box talking in every church meeting.
People often assume that to be silent in the church meeting means one has no authority. The righteous prayers of the petitioner have an authority with God which NO ONE can muzzle. I have seen some meek sisters whose prayers for the congregation were powerful to effect the health of the church.
It is not that not being able to run your mouth all the time in the church meeting robs the Christian of enfluence.
We know that Paul regarded a woman
Junia as of reputation among the apostles:
"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were also were in Christ before me." (Rom. 16:7)
This female Junia, Paul says had a reputation among the apostles.
Could it be that he never heard her say anything ?
We don't know what it was that caused this woman to have a reputation. It could have been her strong prayers, her teaching, her level of consecration, or her sufferings on behalf of the Gospel. Whatever it was Paul acknowledges her contribution to the work. He recognizes also that she was in Christ before he was in Christ. This is showing honor.
How about we consider verses like these while we consider Paul requesting sisters ask their husbands about the meeting's message at home ?
Paul also recommends the extensive service of Phoebe who apparently served the whole church. He mentions the woman's name first in the apostolic team of Prisca and Aquila
(Rom. 16:3) . Perhaps the wife took the lead in the couple to serve the Lord. Whatever the case, Paul puts HER name first -
"Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ". I would not assume that Paul hushed this sister up whenever she had something to fellowship with him.
"Greet Mary, one who has labored much for us." (Rom. 16:6)
Paul was an example of
"there cannot be male and female" in regard to drawing worthy attention to those so consecrated to the Gospel work.
Paul mentions that the mother of Rufus was his mother too. (Rom. 16:13)[/b]
I have known a Christian worker who would not travel unless he reported to an older Christian sister his whereabouts. He coveted her effective prayers. He relied on her prayers. And though there was no official responsibility to do so, he depended on her awareness of his goings and coming and needed her prayers. But it was all for the sake of the Gospel work.
What is profitable to the church life is the driving concern rather than personal cultural considerations. I think it was so with Paul.
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And when he did make such distinctions, it was usually less favorable to women.
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I think that is very arguable. And I would ask if he was so out of step with the norms of his cultural settings ?
I am not so sure. When Paul says
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man" his wording seems like "this is MY practice".
Like I said, his mentioning of Priscilla's name before her husbands doesn't seem to suggest that he never LISTENED to anything she had to say.
And what really do you mean by "less favorable"?
There was no position of Reverend or clerical status in the early church life.
Are you suggesting that because a women "Pastors" are a relatively recent matter that Paul didn't let sisters serve God ?
Maybe people today are too caught up with titles of official heirarchy like "Reverend Jane Jones" and "Reverend Mary Johnsen" and "Pastor Margerat Wilson".
Paul didn't address the disciples as anything but brothers and sisters. There was no hierarchy of coveted TITLES. Does "less favorable" mean woman could not hold clergy positions under Paul's enfluence. Well, there was no clergy / laity system to begin with. That was a latter corruption that came in to the churches so that people coveted positional names of "authority" like "Bishop so and so" and "Elder so and so" and "Reverend so and so".
Junia, Pricilla, Pheobe, and Mary could be enfluencial with God and in the churches without official "favorable" positions in a clergy laity setting.
I think we too highly regard male clergymen in the first place. The Christian church should tear down the clergy - laity tradition. That answer is not to put more woman in "favorable" positions of dubious spiritual authority with a title. The answer to the building up of the church is to have each and all members of the Body of Christ function to full spiritual capacity.
If Christians didn't make so much of a big deal about the title "Reverend Bob" maybe there wouldn't be so many sisters coveting to possess a "favorable" man made religious title like men.
Show me a couple of Christians who prayers can touch God's heart and move His throne, and I show you believers with some spiritual authority to move the church and the world.
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After all, many historians and theologians think Paul was a closet homosexual who really didn't like women. In his defense, it was kind of a anti-women culture back then where women were subservient.
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I think that that is stupid.
But I am not surprised that they would bring in reinforcements to the "Paul the Chauvanist" case with some additional criticisms of "Paul was gay too".
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In response to your question, when it came to being saved, I think Paul (the architect of Christianity) was making the adrogenous point. That both men and women can be saved.
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I don't disagree with that. However, not only SAVED but built up and functioning as a needed and intergral member of the Christian church, is his view.
He ends that passage with
"And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise."
That was not a small thing in Paul's mind. Justification by faith, following Abraham's example was for the eventual goal of possessing the WORLD!
In his chapter on justification through faith after the example of Abraham, that we might be his heirs, Paul writes:
"For it was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be the heir of the world, but through the righteousnesss of faith." (Romans 4:13)
So Paul's teaching that male and female are both equally heirs of Abraham is more than just a matter of both can be saved. Both can be heirs of the earth.