1. Houston, Texas
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    17 Aug '11 17:35
    "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." 1 Corinthians 7:1.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

    "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

    "In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
  2. Joined
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    17 Aug '11 21:211 edit
    Originally posted by moon1969
    "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." 1 Corinthians 7:1.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

    "Let the woman learn in silence with all subj d moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
    Expound for us this passage by the Apostle Paul:

    "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man, there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:26-29)



    Since you seem to know something about Paul and women in the New Testament, what do you think Paul meant to say "there cannot be ... male and female ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" ?

    What social strata do you think Paul is trying to minimize by teaching that in Christ " there cannot be ... male and female" ???

    Expound Paul's intention here in Galatians 5:28.
  3. Houston, Texas
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    18 Aug '11 01:151 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Since you seem to know something about Paul and women in the New Testament, what do you think Paul meant to say [b]"there cannot be ... male and female ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" ?

    What social strata do you think Paul is trying to minimize by teaching that in Christ "there cannot be ... male and female"
    ???

    Expound Paul's intention here in Galatians 5:28.[/b]
    Paul chose when he wanted to make distinctions between men and women. That is clear.

    And when he did make such distinctions, it was usually less favorable to women. After all, many historians and theologians think Paul was a closet homosexual who really didn't like women. In his defense, it was kind of a anti-women culture back then where women were subservient.

    In response to your question, when it came to being saved, I think Paul (the architect of Christianity) was making the adrogenous point. That both men and women can be saved.
  4. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    18 Aug '11 01:39
    Originally posted by moon1969
    "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." 1 Corinthians 7:1.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

    "Let the woman learn in silence with all subj ...[text shortened]... d moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
    Not everything attributed to Paul was actually written by Paul. If you examine just the undisputed Pauline epistles, his theology comes across quite differently than if you include the disputed letters.
  5. Joined
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    18 Aug '11 07:25
    Originally posted by moon1969
    "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." 1 Corinthians 7:1.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

    "Let the woman learn in silence with all subj ...[text shortened]... d moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
    So do fundamentalist women not talk in Church?
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Aug '11 07:58
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    So do fundamentalist women not talk in Church?
    That'l be the day🙂

    Seriously, all this goes to my point that a god would never say one sex is on a higher spiritual plane than another.

    Therefore not coming from a god, the whole thing was simply fabricated by men with the end desire to control men and subjugate women. It is right there in the bible. Even in the old testament, 'a man is worth 50 shekels, a woman 35'.

    So how would a god have arrived at those statements?

    The answer of course, is NEVER.

    The whole thing is man made, to control men, build a power base and subjugate women. Plain and simple. No god need apply.
  7. Joined
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    18 Aug '11 08:149 edits
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Paul chose when he wanted to make distinctions between men and women. That is clear.

    And when he did make such distinctions, it was usually less favorable to women. After all, many historians and theologians think Paul was a closet homosexual who really didn't like women. In his defense, it was kind of a anti-women culture back then where women were s ...[text shortened]... hitect of Christianity) was making the adrogenous point. That both men and women can be saved.
    ================================
    Paul chose when he wanted to make distinctions between men and women. That is clear.
    ===================================


    So you think he was fickle about it ?

    I think Paul had no personal preference about the matter whatsoever. His only concern was what was profitable to building up the Christian church. I think his motive, his intention, his thought is totally centered on what was profitible for the spiritual development of these communities called churches.

    That is why we should consider the whole of his writing. Obviously, by classing the distinction of "male and female" right along with along other social contrasts like "Jew and Greek", "slave and freeman" he has in mind nullifying oppressive social stratification.

    "Don't think you can throw your weight around in the church because you are a Jew. Neither look down your nose on a Jewish brother because you are Greek. Don't cope an attitude because you are a freeman and this other brother is a slave.

    And don't be high minded because you happen to be a male and the other disciple is a female."

    People usually under estimate the power of prayer. I would rather be a disciple whose petitions and prayers could move the hand of God to effect world events then to be a chatter box talking in every church meeting.

    People often assume that to be silent in the church meeting means one has no authority. The righteous prayers of the petitioner have an authority with God which NO ONE can muzzle. I have seen some meek sisters whose prayers for the congregation were powerful to effect the health of the church.

    It is not that not being able to run your mouth all the time in the church meeting robs the Christian of enfluence.

    We know that Paul regarded a woman Junia as of reputation among the apostles:

    "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were also were in Christ before me." (Rom. 16:7)

    This female Junia, Paul says had a reputation among the apostles.
    Could it be that he never heard her say anything ?

    We don't know what it was that caused this woman to have a reputation. It could have been her strong prayers, her teaching, her level of consecration, or her sufferings on behalf of the Gospel. Whatever it was Paul acknowledges her contribution to the work. He recognizes also that she was in Christ before he was in Christ. This is showing honor.

    How about we consider verses like these while we consider Paul requesting sisters ask their husbands about the meeting's message at home ?

    Paul also recommends the extensive service of Phoebe who apparently served the whole church. He mentions the woman's name first in the apostolic team of Prisca and Aquila (Rom. 16:3) . Perhaps the wife took the lead in the couple to serve the Lord. Whatever the case, Paul puts HER name first -

    "Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ". I would not assume that Paul hushed this sister up whenever she had something to fellowship with him.

    "Greet Mary, one who has labored much for us." (Rom. 16:6)

    Paul was an example of "there cannot be male and female" in regard to drawing worthy attention to those so consecrated to the Gospel work.

    Paul mentions that the mother of Rufus was his mother too. (Rom. 16:13)[/b]

    I have known a Christian worker who would not travel unless he reported to an older Christian sister his whereabouts. He coveted her effective prayers. He relied on her prayers. And though there was no official responsibility to do so, he depended on her awareness of his goings and coming and needed her prayers. But it was all for the sake of the Gospel work.

    What is profitable to the church life is the driving concern rather than personal cultural considerations. I think it was so with Paul.

    ==========================================
    And when he did make such distinctions, it was usually less favorable to women.
    ============================================


    I think that is very arguable. And I would ask if he was so out of step with the norms of his cultural settings ?

    I am not so sure. When Paul says "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man" his wording seems like "this is MY practice".

    Like I said, his mentioning of Priscilla's name before her husbands doesn't seem to suggest that he never LISTENED to anything she had to say.

    And what really do you mean by "less favorable"?

    There was no position of Reverend or clerical status in the early church life.
    Are you suggesting that because a women "Pastors" are a relatively recent matter that Paul didn't let sisters serve God ?

    Maybe people today are too caught up with titles of official heirarchy like "Reverend Jane Jones" and "Reverend Mary Johnsen" and "Pastor Margerat Wilson".

    Paul didn't address the disciples as anything but brothers and sisters. There was no hierarchy of coveted TITLES. Does "less favorable" mean woman could not hold clergy positions under Paul's enfluence. Well, there was no clergy / laity system to begin with. That was a latter corruption that came in to the churches so that people coveted positional names of "authority" like "Bishop so and so" and "Elder so and so" and "Reverend so and so".

    Junia, Pricilla, Pheobe, and Mary could be enfluencial with God and in the churches without official "favorable" positions in a clergy laity setting.

    I think we too highly regard male clergymen in the first place. The Christian church should tear down the clergy - laity tradition. That answer is not to put more woman in "favorable" positions of dubious spiritual authority with a title. The answer to the building up of the church is to have each and all members of the Body of Christ function to full spiritual capacity.

    If Christians didn't make so much of a big deal about the title "Reverend Bob" maybe there wouldn't be so many sisters coveting to possess a "favorable" man made religious title like men.

    Show me a couple of Christians who prayers can touch God's heart and move His throne, and I show you believers with some spiritual authority to move the church and the world.

    ============================
    After all, many historians and theologians think Paul was a closet homosexual who really didn't like women. In his defense, it was kind of a anti-women culture back then where women were subservient.
    ===================================


    I think that that is stupid.

    But I am not surprised that they would bring in reinforcements to the "Paul the Chauvanist" case with some additional criticisms of "Paul was gay too".

    ==================================
    In response to your question, when it came to being saved, I think Paul (the architect of Christianity) was making the adrogenous point. That both men and women can be saved.
    ===========================


    I don't disagree with that. However, not only SAVED but built up and functioning as a needed and intergral member of the Christian church, is his view.

    He ends that passage with "And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise."

    That was not a small thing in Paul's mind. Justification by faith, following Abraham's example was for the eventual goal of possessing the WORLD!

    In his chapter on justification through faith after the example of Abraham, that we might be his heirs, Paul writes:

    "For it was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be the heir of the world, but through the righteousnesss of faith." (Romans 4:13)

    So Paul's teaching that male and female are both equally heirs of Abraham is more than just a matter of both can be saved. Both can be heirs of the earth.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Aug '11 08:421 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]================================
    Paul chose when he wanted to make distinctions between men and women. That is clear.
    ===================================


    So you think he was fickle about it ?

    I think Paul had no personal preference about the matter whatsoever. His only concern was what was profitable to building up the Christian chu heirs of the earth.[/b]
    So men are not worth 50 shekels and women 35? Since the religion should be called Paulism, not christianity, what Paul said, His Practices as you put it, started the catholic faith. How many women have been popes?
  9. Joined
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    18 Aug '11 08:451 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So men are not worth 50 shekels and women 35?
    ======================
    So men are not worth 50 shekels and women 35?
    =========================



    In the end of the Bible when the final climax of all human history is reached, the culmination of mankind's eternal salvation is depected as a WOMAN - New Jerusalem adorned as a Bride for her Husband.

    There is actually only one male - God. The billions or so of saved human beings will finally be a corporate Female.
  10. Houston, Texas
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    18 Aug '11 16:021 edit
    The New Testament speaks clearly. Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't.

    1. Women, don't speak in church because it is a shame for you to speak in church. If you have a question, ask your husband at home.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.


    2. Plus, women don't be a teacher but be in silence, and don't usurp authority over the man, because Adam was first formed, and also Eve deceived Adam. Women you bear Eve's transgression. Keep silent. Don't teach. Bow to authority of the man.

    "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14.


    3. Lastly, women, stay plain. Don't dress up. Don't wear jewelry.

    "In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    18 Aug '11 16:121 edit
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The New Testament speaks clearly. Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't.

    1. Women, don't speak in church because it is a shame for you to speak in church. If you have a question, ask your husband at home.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, l eration, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
    There is a time and place for everything. Paul was pointing out that
    for those things, the church meeting was not the time and place.
  12. England
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    18 Aug '11 18:29
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    [b]So men are not worth 50 shekels and women 35?]
    yes but she goes to court, she gets half his so ends up 25/60 and the house.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    18 Aug '11 18:40
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So men are not worth 50 shekels and women 35? Since the religion should be called Paulism, not christianity, what Paul said, His Practices as you put it, started the catholic faith. How many women have been popes?
    We are not here trying to defend the Roman Catholic Church for most
    of us are not Roman Catholic.
  14. Joined
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    18 Aug '11 19:521 edit
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The New Testament speaks clearly. Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't.

    1. Women, don't speak in church because it is a shame for you to speak in church. If you have a question, ask your husband at home.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, l eration, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
    =================================
    The New Testament speaks clearly. Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't.
    ==================================


    So you are committed to the clearly spoken teaching of the New Testament now ?

    Or is this selective fundamentalism ?
  15. Joined
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    18 Aug '11 21:055 edits
    Originally posted by moon1969
    The New Testament speaks clearly. Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't.

    1. Women, don't speak in church because it is a shame for you to speak in church. If you have a question, ask your husband at home.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, l eration, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing" 1 Timothy 2:9
    ===============================
    The New Testament speaks clearly. Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't.

    1. Women, don't speak in church because it is a shame for you to speak in church. If you have a question, ask your husband at home.

    "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
    ====================================


    Please expound for us Paul's instructions about women praying or prophesying with her head uncovered:

    "Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head; ..." (1 Cor. 11:5)

    If all the women were only at home praying and prophesying how would Paul know and why would he care ?

    He told the church that they all may prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged. It is not that clear cut what "speak in the church" meant there to me. He may have meant to teach defining doctrines with authority as his word in the Timothy epistle.

    The case is not quite clear enough that we can detect that no sisters were praying or prophesying in a corporate setting. Otherwise his word concerning their doing so and head covering seems perculiar as if he was imposing on the soveriegn jurisdiction of a married man and his wife.


    Now lets go on to look at your bomb. What else did Paul write there?

    " ... for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. ... If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him fully know that the things which I write to you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.

    But if anyone ignores this, let him ignore it."


    You remind me "Either you believe in the New Testament, or you don't".

    For the record, our sisters pray and prophesy in the church meetings. Then again neither do we strictly obey the exhortation to greet one another with a holy kiss.

    On a scale of relative importance where would you place the silence of women in the church meeting ? Would you say that it was as crucial to Paul as say not worshipping an idol ?

    Do we have a case of a sister being put out of the church because she spoke in a meeting ? But we see commands to separate from idolatry, fornication, adultery.

    So in relative importance, the "ignoring" of the apostles' tradition of silent sisters in a church meeting (whatever exactly that meant) was far less crucial than things like the authority of the apostle's gospel, and the command to flee idolatry.

    Perspective ?
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