1. Felicific Forest
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    29 Aug '05 00:171 edit
    http://www.catholic.net/linksframe.phtml?link=http://www.newadvent.org/docs


    On the enslavement and evangelization of Indians [" ... and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians"]

    Sublimus Dei
    His Holiness Pope Paul III
    May 29, 1537

    Paul III Pope. To all faithful Christians to whom this writing may come, health in Christ our Lord and the apostolic benediction.

    THE SUBLIME GOD so loved the human race that He created man in such wise that he might participate, not only in the good that other creatures enjoy, but endowed him with capacity to attain to the inaccessible and invisible Supreme Good and behold it face to face; and since man, according to the testimony of the sacred scriptures, has been created to enjoy eternal life and happiness, which none may obtain save through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, it is necessary that he should possess the nature and faculties enabling him to receive that faith; and that whoever is thus endowed should be capable of receiving that same faith. Nor is it credible that any one should possess so little understanding as to desire the faith and yet be destitute of the most necessary faculty to enable him to receive it. Hence Christ, who is the Truth itself, that has never failed and can never fail, said to the preachers of the faith whom He chose for that office 'Go ye and teach all nations.' He said all, without exception, for all are capable of receiving the doctrines of the faith.

    The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God's word of Salvation to the people: he inspired his satellites who, to please him, have not hesitated to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith.

    We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are BY NO MEANS TO BE DEPRIVED OF THEIR LIBERTY OR THE POSSESSION OF THEIR PROPERTY, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; NOR SHOULD THEY BE IN ANY WAY ENSLAVED; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.

    By virtue of Our apostolic authority We define and declare by these present letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, which shall thus command the same obedience as the originals, that the said Indians and other peoples should be converted to the faith of Jesus Christ by preaching the word of God and by the example of good and holy living.


    http://www.catholic.net/linksframe.phtml?link=http://www.newadvent.org/docs
  2. Standard memberHalitose
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    29 Aug '05 08:26
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    http://www.catholic.net/linksframe.phtml?link=http://www.newadvent.org/docs


    On the enslavement and evangelization of Indians [" ... and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians"]

    Sublimus Dei
    His Holiness Pope Paul III
    May 29, 1537

    Paul III Pope. To all faithful Christians to whom this writing may come, health in Christ our ...[text shortened]... d holy living.


    http://www.catholic.net/linksframe.phtml?link=http://www.newadvent.org/docs
    Great. Although I would still ascribe the abolition of slavery to the tireless work of William Wilberforce.
  3. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Aug '05 08:461 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Great. Although I would still ascribe the abolition of slavery to the tireless work of William Wilberforce.
    He had a lot of work to do, because slavery was still going strong. The RC church was still pro-slavery...

    1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment.

    1629 to 1661 CE: Pope Urban VIII in 1629, Pope Innocent X in 1645 and Pope Alexander VII in 1661 were all personally involved in the purchase of Muslim slaves.

    Late in the 17th century, Leander, a Roman Catholic theologian, wrote:

    "It is certainly a matter of faith that this sort of slavery in which a man serves his master as his slave, is altogether lawful. This is proved from Holy Scripture...It is also proved from reason for it is not unreasonable that just as things which are captured in a just war pass into the power and ownership of the victors, so persons captured in war pass into the ownership of the captors... All theologians are unanimous on this."

    1888: Brazil became the last country in the Western hemisphere to abolish slavery. The Roman Catholic Church reversed its stance "from the affirmation to the condemnation of slavery." 10 Pope Leo XIII sent a letter to the Brazilian Bishops saying that "from the beginning, almost nothing was more venerated in the Catholic Church...that the fact that she looked to see a slavery eased and abolished...Many of our predecessors...made every effort to ensure that the institution of slavery should be abolished where it existed and that its roots should not revive where it had been destroyed." This statement does not agree with the historical record. Previous church documents clearly stated that slavery was quite permissible, as long as the slave was a non-Christian and the slave's captors were fighting in a just war.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

    So please don't kid yourself.
  4. Standard memberHalitose
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    29 Aug '05 09:37
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    He had a lot of work to do, because slavery was still going strong. The RC church was still pro-slavery...

    1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment.

    1629 to 1661 CE: Pope Urban VIII in 1629, Pope Innocent X in 1645 and Pope Alexander ...[text shortened]... a just war.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

    So please don't kid yourself.
    Ahem... 🙁

    Just read up on Wilberforce first.

    I'm not saying that the Pope didn't have any impact, but if you have to measure the person who had the greatest contribution to the abolition of slavery I still say it was Wilberforce.
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Aug '05 09:45
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Ahem... 🙁

    Just read up on Wilberforce first.

    I'm not saying that the Pope didn't have any impact, but if you have to measure the person who had the greatest contribution to the abolition of slavery I still say it was Wilberforce.
    Sorry, the "don't kid yourself" was aimed at anyone who might have thought the RCC had a big anti-slavery stance. I agree with you about Wilberforce.
  6. Standard memberHalitose
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    29 Aug '05 09:47
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Sorry, the "don't kid yourself" was aimed at anyone who might have thought the RCC had a big anti-slavery stance. I agree with you about Wilberforce.
    🙂
  7. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    29 Aug '05 10:18
    Originally posted by Halitose
    🙂
    Don't fail to give the Quakers their due.
  8. Standard memberHalitose
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    29 Aug '05 10:22
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Don't fail to give the Quakers their due.
    Yes... There are many who worked towards abolition, the Quakers included.
  9. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    29 Aug '05 11:37
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Yes... There are many who worked towards abolition, the Quakers included.
    9 of the 12 founders on The Society to Abolish the Slave Trade were Quakers, I think the Friends were a bit big on the word 'society'. .lol
  10. Standard memberHalitose
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    29 Aug '05 13:11
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    9 of the 12 founders on The Society to Abolish the Slave Trade were Quakers, I think the Friends were a bit big on the word 'society'. .lol
    I've seen quite a few societies that look great in name, and when you walk into their dingy offices, you realise it's a 2 or 3 man show...
  11. Felicific Forest
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    29 Aug '05 16:101 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    He had a lot of work to do, because slavery was still going strong. The RC church was still pro-slavery...

    1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment.

    1629 to 1661 CE: Pope Urban VIII in 1629, Pope Innocent X in 1645 and Pope Alexander ...[text shortened]... a just war.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

    So please don't kid yourself.
    ..... and why do we have to believe this site you gave us ? Can you back up these claims by reliable sources ?

    For instance where does it say in Sublimus Deus that "Only hostile non-Christians, captured in just wars could become slaves" ?

    "1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment."

    In which document did Pope Paul III confirm this above stance ?

    "Previous church documents clearly stated that slavery was quite permissible, as long as the slave was a non-Christian and the slave's captors were fighting in a just war."

    Can you produce these documents ?


    "1629 to 1661 CE: Pope Urban VIII in 1629, Pope Innocent X in 1645 and Pope Alexander VII in 1661 were all personally involved in the purchase of Muslim slaves."

    Can you prove these allegations ?



    ...... and by the way, the writings of theologians do not have any saying in these matters, since theologians, Roman Catholic or not, have a habit of producing a lot of writings contrary Roman Catholic teachings.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Aug '05 16:41
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    ..... and why do we have to believe this site you gave us ? Can you back up these claims by reliable sources ?

    For instance where does it say in Sublimus Deus that "Only hostile non-Christians, captured in just wars could become slaves" ?

    "1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were ...[text shortened]... Catholic or not, have a habit of producing a lot of writings contrary Roman Catholic teachings.
    Various sites mention those three popes; I haven't found a concrete reference yet.

    What do you make of the following, though?

    The Holy Office in 1866
    In 1866 a request for an opinion on slavery was made to the Holy Office in reaction to the passing of the 13th amendment to the United States Constitution. It responded that:
    "Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons. It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given. The purchaser should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue, or Catholic faith of the slave." [Instruction 20, June 1866]

    http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/Slavery.htm
  13. Felicific Forest
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    29 Aug '05 19:27
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Various sites mention those three popes; I haven't found a concrete reference yet.

    What do you make of the following, though?

    The Holy Office in 1866
    In 1866 a request for an opinion on slavery was made to the Holy Office in reaction to the passing of the 13th amendment to the United States Constitution. It responded that:
    "Slavery itself, ...[text shortened]... aith of the slave." [Instruction 20, June 1866]

    http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/Slavery.htm
    Could you please give an official site where I can read this "Instruction 20, June 1866" from the Holy Office ? I can't find it.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 Aug '05 21:491 edit
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    ..... and why do we have to believe this site you gave us ? Can you back up these claims by reliable sources ?

    For instance where does it say in Sublimus Deus that "Only hostile non-Christians, captured in just wars could become slaves" ?

    "1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were ...[text shortened]... Catholic or not, have a habit of producing a lot of writings contrary Roman Catholic teachings.
    Ever hear of the Papal Bull Romanus Pontifex of Pope Nicholas V? It states:

    "We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to REDUCE THEIR PERSONS TO PERPETUAL SLAVERY (emphasis added)"

    http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/indig-romanus-pontifex.html

    Official enough for ya??
  15. Felicific Forest
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    29 Aug '05 22:372 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Ever hear of the Papal Bull Romanus Pontifex of Pope Nicholas V? It states:

    "We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, an ...[text shortened]... p://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/indig-romanus-pontifex.html

    Official enough for ya??
    I'm sorry but this is not a document on Church teachings but it is a political effort to settle a political dispute between the then world powers Portugal and Spain in a time wherein Europe is threatened by the "Saracenes", the followers of Mohammed, and other "pagans"

    You can also read The Inter Caetera, Papal Bull of May 4, 1493 by Alexander VI

    http://www.kwabs.com/bull_of_1493.html

    Wherein another solution to the political conflict is presented by the Holy See.


    If you look upon these bulls as presentations of the Church's moral teachings on slavery, the slave trade or other issues you are sadly mistaken.
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