1. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    90892
    31 Aug '05 18:05
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Bosse: "both involve people forcing other people to work for nothing.... "

    This is the "American" form of slavery, chattel slavery, not for instance the old Roman form of slavery.

    To put things in a broader perspective, please read the following:


    http://myweb.lmu.edu/fjust/Bible/Social_Aspects.htm



    Some Aspects of the "Social Situation ...[text shortened]... -26; 2Cor 1:8-11; cf. Acts 19:21-41).


    http://myweb.lmu.edu/fjust/Bible/Social_Aspects.htm
    I'll limit my response to your condescending blather to the following:

    A Pope set the scene for the Portuguese slave trade. No Pope did anything limit the Portuguese slave trade in Negroes. Ergo, the Catholic Church did little if anything to prevent the African slave trade, whatever it might have done to limit it in South America. Prove that it did something to stop the Portuguese from trading in Negroes & I'll happily eat my hat and my boots.
  2. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    48708
    31 Aug '05 19:502 edits
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'll limit my response to your condescending blather to the following:

    A Pope set the scene for the Portuguese slave trade. No Pope did anything limit the Portuguese slave trade in Negroes. Ergo, the Catholic Church did little if anything to prevent the African slave trade, whatever it might have done to limit it in South America. Prove that it did ...[text shortened]... omething to stop the Portuguese from trading in Negroes & I'll happily eat my hat and my boots.
    Bosse: "condescending blather"

    C'mon Bosse, you are wrong on a couple of points. That's all.

    You accuse people and then I have to prove they are innocent. That's turning the world upside down. Besides that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the Roman-Catholic moral teachings were against chattel slavery and slave trade. The fact that the Church couln't force people to act accordingly is hardly a point you can raise against her.

    Again you declare people guilty and you start reasoning from there. Wrong, you cannot discuss these matters by simply repeating your accusations.
  3. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    90892
    31 Aug '05 20:03
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Again you declare people guilty and you start reasoning from there. Wrong.
    I've tried to show that the Church did not take a particularly active stance in this matter, given what I take to be its obvious power. I make no particular accusation. Guilt for the slave-trade...Perhaps it cannot be assigned..."society is to blame"...
  4. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    31 Aug '05 21:49
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I've tried to show that the Church did not take a particularly active stance in this matter, given what I take to be its obvious power. I make no particular accusation. Guilt for the slave-trade...Perhaps it cannot be assigned..."society is to blame"...
    Papes eating and having their cake.
    The slaves brought to the Americas were chattel . There was nothing "just" about chattel slavery, period.
  5. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    48708
    31 Aug '05 21:531 edit
    If you or somebody else is interested in the multi-dimensional truth concerning these matters I can advise you to read the following article by Fr. Joell S. Panzer:


    THE POPES AND SLAVERY: SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM

    This article shows that the teachings of the Papal Magisterium were consistently anti chattel-, anti racial enslavement and anti-slavetrade as we have come to know these appalling phenomena from the very beginning of the "Discovery" age.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM

    This article also shows the ever present disobedience towards the Papal Magisterium from Christians (and others) of all background including lay people, priests and bishops, which made it possible for these unworthy practises to continue during centuries.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Even today slavery exists:

    "There are more slaves today than were seized from Africa in four centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The modern commerce in humans rivals illegal drug trafficking in its global reach—and in the destruction of lives."

    http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Trafficking

    Modern day slavery is not usually associated with the West - but tens of thousands of women are trafficked there every year as sex workers and forced labourers.

    The problem received worldwide attention earlier this year when nineteen Chinese labourers were drowned in the rising waters as they picked cockles in Morecambe Bay in the northwest of England. They were being paid the equivalent of less than $2 a day.

    Others come from Eastern Europe. Ivana, a Ukrainian woman in her early 20s, talks about how a job she took as a waitress in Greece turned into something more sinister - and she found herself forced into prostitution in Birmingham, in the English Midlands.

    And one trafficker, now in hiding, reveals how he used to kidnap babies as young as 18 months and transport them through Europe.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1357_slavery_today/index.shtml

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Same as with the appalling practises of abortion, infanticide and active euthanasia many many, too many, Christians (and others) have their own self-serving reasons to dismiss and disobey the rulings of the Papal Magisterium. History repeating .....
  6. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    31 Aug '05 22:06
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    If you or somebody else is interested in the multi-dimensional truth concerning these matters I can advise you to read the following article by Fr. Joell S. Panzer:


    THE POPES AND SLAVERY: SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM


    This article shows that the teachings of the Papal Magisterium were consistently a ...[text shortened]... ing reasons to dismiss and disobey the rulings of the Papal Magisterium. History repeating .....
    The Popes dancing around a clear statement is the fault, it takes less words than are in the titles of long winded bulls , to say .. Slavery is Anathema.

    Multi-dimensional truth isnt an accurate description better is "attempted obfuscation".

    Simply put: When exactly did a Pope declare chattel slavery is an Evil? Not concerned with this group or that group, the entire thing is either an evil or it isn't.
  7. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    48708
    31 Aug '05 22:14
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    The Popes dancing around a clear statement is the fault, it takes less words than are in the titles of long winded bulls , to say .. Slavery is Anathema.

    Multi-dimensional truth isnt an accurate description better is "attempted obfuscation".

    Simply put: When exactly did a Pope declare chattel sla ...[text shortened]... ith this group or that group, the entire thing is either an evil or it isn't.
    Please read the thread and the accompanying links froggy.
  8. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    31 Aug '05 22:58
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Please read the thread and the accompanying links froggy.
    Just a date when a clear all encompassing statement when a Pope outlawed chattel slavery would serve.
    England outlawed slavery in 1833.
    When did the RCC do the same?
    I do understand political limitations , but there was a time when Popes had no such limitations and there has never been restrictions on papal authority in doctrines of faith and allowing the faithful to believe an evil wasn't an evil should have been an unthinkable doctrine for any of the Popes.
  9. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    48708
    31 Aug '05 23:03
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Just a date when a clear all encompassing statement when a Pope outlawed chattel slavery would serve.
    England outlawed slavery in 1833.
    When did the RCC do the same?
    I do understand political limitations , but there was a time when Popes had no such limitations and there has never been restrictions on papal auth ...[text shortened]... an evil wasn't an evil should have been an unthinkable doctrine for any of the Popes.
    Have you read my posts and the accompanying links ?
  10. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    31 Aug '05 23:11
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Have you read my posts and the accompanying links ?
    One simple sentence would suffice .Its not that difficult a question. Just a date?
  11. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    48708
    31 Aug '05 23:583 edits
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    One simple sentence would suffice .Its not that difficult a question. Just a date?
    http://users.binary.net/polycarp/slave.html

    "Now we usually think of slavery in terms of innocent people who were unjustly captured and reduced to "beasts of burden" due solely to their race. This was the most common form in the U.S. before the Thirteenth Amendment. This form of slavery, known as racial slavery, began in large-scale during the 15th century and was formally condemned by the Popes as early as 1435, fifty-seven years before Columbus discovered America. In 1404, the Spanish discovered the Canary Islands. They began to colonize the island and enslave its people. Pope Eugene IV in 1435 wrote to Bishop Ferdinand of Lanzarote in his Bull, Sicut Dudum:

    ...They have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery, sold them to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them... We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands...who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money... [Panzer, p. 8; also pp. 75-78 with original critical Latin text]

    Those faithful, who did not obey, were excommunicated ipso facto. This is the same punishment imposed today on Catholics who participate in abortion. Some people may claim that Pope Eugene only condemned the practice in the Canary Island and not slavery in general. This claim is hard to accept since he does condemn together this particular case of slavery along with "other various illicit and evil deeds."

    A century later, the Spanish and Portuguese were colonizing South America. Unfortunately the practice of slavery did not end. Even though far from being a saint, Pope Paul III in 1537 issued a Bull against slavery, entitled Sublimis Deus, to the universal Church. He wrote:

    ...The exalted God loved the human race so much that He created man in such a condition that he was not only a sharer in good as are other creatures, but also that he would be able to reach and see face to face the inaccessible and invisible Supreme Good... Seeing this and envying it, the enemy of the human race, who always opposes all good men so that the race may perish, has thought up a way, unheard of before now, by which he might impede the saving word of God from being preached to the nations. He (Satan) has stirred up some of his allies who, desiring to satisfy their own avarice, are presuming to assert far and wide that the Indians...be reduced to our service like brute animals, under the pretext that they are lacking the Catholic faith. And they reduce them to slavery, treating them with afflictions they would scarcely use with brute animals... by our Apostolic Authority decree and declare by these present letters that the same Indians and all other peoples - even though they are outside the faith - ...should not be deprived of their liberty... Rather they are to be able to use and enjoy this liberty and this ownership of property freely and licitly, and are not to be reduced to slavery... [Ibid., pp.79-81 with original critical Latin text]

    Pope Paul not only condemned the slavery of Indians but also "all other peoples." In his phrase "unheard of before now", he seems to see a difference between this new form of slavery (i.e. racial slavery) and the ancient forms of just-title slavery. A few days before, he also issued a Brief, entitled Pastorale Officium to Cardinal Juan de Tavera of Toledo, which warned the Catholic faithful of excommunication for participating in slavery. Unfortunately Pope Paul made reference to the King of Castile and Aragon in this Brief. Under political pressure, the Pope later retracted this Brief but did not annul the Bull. It is interesting to note that even though he retracted his Brief, Popes Gregory XIV, Urban VIII and Benedict XIV still recognized and confirmed its authority against slavery and the slave trade.

    Popes Gregory XIV (Cum Sicuti, 1591), Urban VIII (Commissum Nobis, 1639) and Benedict XIV (Immensa Pastorum, 1741) also condemned slavery and the slave trade. Unlike the earlier papal letters, these excommunications were more directed towards the clergy than the laity. In 1839, Pope Gregory XVI issued a Bull, entitled In Supremo. Its main focus was against slave trading, but it also clearly condemned racial slavery:

    We, by apostolic authority, warn and strongly exhort in the Lord faithful Christians of every condition that no one in the future dare bother unjustly, despoil of their possessions, or reduce to slavery Indians, Blacks or other such peoples. [Ibid., pp.101]

    Unfortunately a few American bishops misinterpreted this Bull as condemning only the slave trade and not slavery itself. Bishop John England of Charleston actually wrote several letters to the Secretary of State under President Van Buren explaining that the Pope, in In Supremo, did not condemn slavery but only the slave trade (Ibid., pp. 67-68). ..... etc. "

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    Let's pick a date, the year 1435 , because this was the first time chattel slavery or racial slavery was condemned by the RCC, by Pope Eugene IV, fifty-seven years before Columbus discovered America.
  12. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    01 Sep '05 01:48
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    http://users.binary.net/polycarp/slave.html

    "Now we usually think of slavery in terms of innocent people who were unjustly captured and reduced to "beasts of burden" due solely to their race. This was the most common form in the U.S. before the Thirteenth Amendment. This form of slavery, known as racial slavery, began in large-scale during the 15th cen ...[text shortened]... condemned by the RCC, by Pope Eugene IV, fifty-seven years before Columbus discovered America.
    Eugene was case specific , not a general condemnation and it wast issued from Florence, he had been stoned out of Rome in 1434 which ought to tell you how serious Spain took the authority of the Papacy. since Spain did follow Eugene's orders even if the Cardinals in Rome didn't..
    Slavery in the America started in Spanish territories 50 years before the English arrived .

    Even conceding that Pope Gregory XVI issued a clear anti-slavery statement that wasn't until 1839.
    To say Gregory IVX was against the slave-trade is to say the clergy was involved in some way since his and Urban's and Benedict's were aimed at the clergy and thus not a general proscription.

    I posted the true feelings of the RCC about slavery in an earlier post :

    "In about 575 a monk called Gregory saw some young men in the Rome slave-market. He spoke to them and discovered that these men were from England. After talking to these slaves he was shocked to discover that there were very few Christians living in England. Gregory was determined to change this situation and when he became Pope he sent his friend Augustine and forty monks to England to convert the inhabitants to Christianity."

    he was "shocked" but not about slavery. The idea that a human being could be bought and sold like cattle didn't phase him a bit . That was a natural way of thinking for somebody enslaved by the Error of the Old Testament.

    the abolition of slavery began with George Fox discarding that stone age junk. It's about time the RCC follows suit.
  13. Felicific Forest
    Joined
    15 Dec '02
    Moves
    48708
    01 Sep '05 05:012 edits
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Eugene was case specific , not a general condemnation and it wast issued from Florence, he had been stoned out of Rome in 1434 which ought to tell you how serious Spain took the authority of the Papacy. since Spain did follow Eugene's orders even if the Cardinals in Rome didn't..
    Slavery in the America st ...[text shortened]... orge Fox discarding that stone age junk. It's about time the RCC follows suit.
    Sorry if the Church's condemnations throughout the centuries do not have the format you want them to have.

    .... and by the way, the counter evidence you posted about Gregory's, and the RCC's, true feelings in a Roman marketplace in the year 575 (about) nearly blew me out of my chair ..... I'm impressed.
  14. Standard memberfrogstomp
    Bruno's Ghost
    In a hot place
    Joined
    11 Sep '04
    Moves
    7707
    01 Sep '05 08:10
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Sorry if the Church's condemnations throughout the centuries do not have the format you want them to have.

    .... and by the way, the counter evidence you posted about Gregory's, and the RCC's, true feelings in a Roman marketplace in the year 575 (about) nearly blew me out of my chair ..... I'm impressed.
    There's still time for the Church to get back to the business of spreading the word of the Kingdom but it would take the realization that less is more.
    Maybe the time is now, I'm not a seer.
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    90892
    01 Sep '05 08:11
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    The Popes dancing around a clear statement is the fault, it takes less words than are in the titles of long winded bulls , to say .. Slavery is Anathema.
    Sums it up for me.
Back to Top

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree