Paul "verses" John - NOT

Originally posted by sonship

1. My "spirit" (a fictional entity) can touch 'god" (another fictional entity) ? THANKS

You are quite welcome. Of course a damaged and comatose human spirit cannot touch God. But the function of the innermost part of man, the human spirit, exists to directly contact God.

The unregenerated man is not aware that he has a human spirit. Bu ...[text shortened]... covered deep within from a comatose spiritual "organ" to fellowship and commune with your Maker.

One question: By "unregenerated", do you mean "unrepentant"? Or do you just mean "without the Holy Spirit"?

Originally posted by JS357

Well, there are plenty of web sites that report these seemingly apparent contradictions. Looking specifically for any that are specifically between the allegedly John-written and the allegedly Paul-written takes more work, but it's not work I care to do. I wouldn't count it as an accomplishment to convince you that the "seemingly" is "actually."
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Since you don't really care, I won't just trust you to know Paul's writings can be pitted over against John's. The Internet is also a vast source of misinformation and people have a right in this country of the US to say pretty much anything they wish.

It is interesting to me that one book of the New Testament, Hebrews goes out of its way to point out that all Scripture is the speaking of the Holy Spirit. No personalities are mentioned. But Hebrews, which quotes or refers to the Hebrew Bible very much, never mentions the human vessel through which the words came.

IE. The footnote to Hebrews 1:1 in the Recovery Version is insightful:

"God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son ..." (Heb. 1:1,2a)

" God has spoken! Praise Him! Without Him speaking, God is mysterious. But He has revealed Himself in His speaking. He is no longer mysterious. Now He is the revealed God.

The emphasis of this book is that God, not man, has spoken. Therefore, it does not identify its writer, nor in any of its quotations from the Old Testament does it mention the speaker's name. According to the concept of this book, the entire Scripture is the speaking of God. Hence, in referring to the Old Testament, this book always says that it is the Holy Spirit's speaking (3:7; 9:5; 10:15-17)"

At least this book of Hebrews is saying - "It doesn't matter what person wrote this. It is the speaking of the Holy Spirit of God."

So I also appreciate that angle of the authorship of Scripture issue as well.

Originally posted by Suzianne
One question: By "unregenerated", do you mean "unrepentant"? Or do you just mean "without the Holy Spirit"?

I think I should answer that I mean both.
Unrepentant and thus also un-reborn and without the life imparting Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by vivify

Numbers 23:19: "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind."

In light of the whole Bible, this verse means that IF God should become a man (as He was to future to this speaking), He also would not be a lying Person.

No doubt, future to the time of the book of Numbers God incarnates as a man.

" For a [human] child is born to us;
A son is given to us;
And the government is upon His shoulder;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,

To uphold it in justice and righteousness from now to eternity. (Isaiah 9:6,7a)

We can see:

1.) God becomes a man.
2.) Because He is such a Man of truth, not speaking any lies, His kingdom is of justice, peace and righteousness, and lasting forever.

If God becomes a man in Jesus Christ He is not lying in ANYTHING He says or does. That is how I think we should understand Numbers 23:19 in context of the whole Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
I think I should answer that I mean both.
Unrepentant and thus also un-reborn and without the life imparting Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
1. My "spirit" (a fictional entity) can touch 'god" (another fictional entity) ? THANKS

2. And you diagnosed this how?

3. Mumbo jumbo. Don't use precise mathematical language to give your superstition gravitas.

wolgang59 you are beginning to deviate from the topic, this has got nothing to do with mathematics. The topic if discussion is quite clear.

Originally posted by sonship

Numbers 23:19: "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind."

In light of the whole Bible, this verse means that IF God should become a man (as He was to future to this speaking), He also would not be a lying Person.

No doubt, future to the time of the book of [b]Numbers[/ ...[text shortened]... es. That is how I think we should understand [b]Numbers 23:19 in context of the whole Bible.[/b]

Doesn't change the fact that he contradicted himself by changing his mind.

Originally posted by vivify
Doesn't change the fact that he contradicted himself by changing his mind.

I am not finished commenting on that post yet.
We'll look at the "changing his mind" thing shortly.

Originally posted by vivify
Numbers 23:19: "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind."

God changes his mind:

Exodus 32:14:
"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (NASB).

Jonah 3:10: "...he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."

1 Samuel 2:30 “Therefore ...[text shortened]... your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me!'"

Numbers 23:19: "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind."

Once again. If God should become a man (as He did when the Word became flesh (John 1:1) He was not a Person to lie - ever. Praise the Lord.

God changes his mind:

Exodus 32:14:

Exodus 32:14 says -

"Thus Jehovah repented of the evil which He said He would do to His people."

The previous passage you quoted was Numbers 23:19 said God is [at that time] not a man that He should lie, nor [at that time] s son of man that He should repent.

It is true that before the incarnation you have this Exodus 32:14 verse saying God repented of the judgment He said He would perform -


"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (NASB).
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While I see your point, I also don't see HOW ELSE God could manifest His salvation to a man who deserves His righteous judgment. To impress generations to come of His plan of salvation, He has to explain that rather than condemn man justly for his sins, God has a plan to righteously save man by causing that judgment to fall upon a Redeemer, His Son.

So I would not say that you have no point. But I would say my reaction is gladness that God shows He has a way that I can be justified, redeemed, reconciled to a righteous and holy God rather than being on the end of His righteous condemnation.

While you may have a point in that one verse says God doesn't repent and another says God repented, it is peculiar that a sinner's reaction would not be thankfulness. Do you instead put that aside for the happiness of claiming you caught God lying ?

That is strange indeed. While it is a paradox it is a fortunate one. And I don't think it proves any unrighteousness in God. For His plan of salvation is that we are forgiven not as backdoor deal unrighteously, as if God showed partiality or crooked favoritism that we be saved. But the Bible shows the debt of sin is PAID.

In context of the whole revelation of Scripture, while God says He repents at what He intended in judgment to those whom He loved, the judging of the actual evil does not go unaddressed in a sloppy hyper-liberal permissivist way. Rather judgment is carried out on the sinner's behalf in a Substitute.

Look at that whole section again in Exodus 32. Moses is a type and foreshadow of the interceding Redeemer to come - the Son of God. Moses is a foretaste of the Savior Christ making intercession for us as He did that we be saved from eternal judgment.

" And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." ( Luke 23:34 )

My opinion is that this interceding prayer was that they did not realize that they were murdering God incarnate. They were attempting to kill God. They did not know what they were doing in that regard IMO.

Moses is a type [edited] and foreshadow of Christ, standing between the righteous justice of God's condemnation and the condemned sinners. And because of Moses fulfilling that intermediary symbolism (for our education) God says He repents of the evil He said He would do to the people.
For space sake, your other examples I probably address below.

Originally posted by vivify
Numbers 23:19: "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind."

God changes his mind:

Exodus 32:14:
"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (NASB).

Jonah 3:10: "...he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."

1 Samuel 2:30 “Therefore ...[text shortened]... your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me!'"

God does not change His mind, but I think you should consider that he can postpone the inevitable. He repented on Nineveh but were they eventually destroyed?
I am not of the masses that believe God is in control of everything that happens. Nor do I believe God knows all future events exhaustively.
He has a pretty good idea of what will happen, but things can change. Circumstances can change. Our prayers definitely help determine outcomes.
This is a deep topic, and I suggest you look at the work of Greg Boyd, God of The Possible.
Also a brief synopsis on the topic here...
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/does-god-know-every-future-event-in-human-history

Originally posted by checkbaiter
God does not change His mind, but I think you should consider that he can postpone the inevitable. He repented on Nineveh but were they eventually destroyed?

God also relented on destroying Israel many, many times. Were they eventually destroyed?

Originally posted by vivify
God also relented on destroying Israel many, many times. Were they eventually destroyed?

I think you should take your concept that God is not a man that He should lie, keep it before you, and study the passages about Jesus in His passion before His crucifixion.

In each of the Gospels we see a Man, who did not HAVE to go through what He did.
WHY? Why then did He drink the awful cup ?
Why did He undergo the torture?
Why did He undergo the nailing and the crucifixion.

He prayed and sought that the cup be removed from Him - yet not His will, but His Father's must be done. In obedience the hellishness of man's torture and God's wrath upon sin fell on Him.

It was because no lie could God tell. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Because He could not lie or live for any untruth, He went to the cross for us.

New American Standard Bible
He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

King James Bible
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Originally posted by vivify
God also relented on destroying Israel many, many times. Were they eventually destroyed?

Yes, many times.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, many times.

de·stroy
dəˈstroi/
verb
verb: destroy; 3rd person present: destroys; past tense: destroyed; past participle: destroyed; gerund or present participle: destroying
put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
"the room had been destroyed by fire"
defeat (someone) utterly.
"the Tigers destroyed the Padres in five games"
synonyms: annihilate, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase;

When did this happen to Israel?