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    09 Oct '09 15:42
    Two observations:

    Is is clear now how much the world hates George Bush for what he did?
    Is is also clear now how much the world expects from the USA?

    Now some spiritual questions:

    I believe the world looks to America because of the promise contained in our founding documents - the promise that their is a political solution that allows people to live together with mutual respect under a system of law that guarantees the rights of every citizen. This idea stands in direct opposition to those who claim to be "apolitical" (by the way it was apathy more than anything else that got Bush in office.) How can these people justify being "apolitical" when the "American Experiment" so compellingly demonstrates how important political freedom is to every human on this planet? Are these people just so selfish that the only care about themselves (better the whole world should perish than I should burn my finger?)

    Secondarily, are the religions that promote this "apolitical" stance among their followers just as much the enemies of freedom as the religions that advocate violent solutions to this problem? Evil triumphs every day when good people do nothing. Shouldn't these systems of belief and their followers be ashamed? Isn't blood on their hands? Or do they even care?
  2. Subscriberduecer
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    09 Oct '09 15:46
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Two observations:

    Is is clear now how much the world hates George Bush for what he did?
    Is is also clear now how much the world expects from the USA?

    Now some spiritual questions:

    I believe the world looks to America because of the promise contained in our founding documents - the promise that their is a political solution that allows people to ...[text shortened]... lief and their followers be ashamed? Isn't blood on their hands? Or do they even care?
    wrong forum spanky
  3. Standard memberPalynka
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    09 Oct '09 16:01
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Two observations:

    Is is clear now how much the world hates George Bush for what he did?
    Is is also clear now how much the world expects from the USA?

    Now some spiritual questions:

    I believe the world looks to America because of the promise contained in our founding documents - the promise that their is a political solution that allows people to ...[text shortened]... lief and their followers be ashamed? Isn't blood on their hands? Or do they even care?
    No.

    The US is no exception in being a country that allows people to live together with mutual respect under a system of law that guarantees the rights of every citizen, (and one could argue that a few others even do it better) so that's clearly not the reason.

    The reason is a simple, but all-important geopolitical one. The US is the global power and one that has been drifting away from not only its own ideals, but also what the world (or its allies) hopes it to be. This concerns us all, and so people all around the world are in living in the expectation that it could change for the better and invert a sad and dangerous trend.
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    09 Oct '09 16:171 edit
    Originally posted by duecer
    wrong forum spanky
    Can you read, bubba?
  5. Joined
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    09 Oct '09 16:27
    Originally posted by Palynka
    No.

    The US is no exception in being a country that allows people to live together with mutual respect under a system of law that guarantees the rights of every citizen, (and one could argue that a few others even do it better) so that's clearly not the reason.

    The reason is a simple, but all-important geopolitical one. The US is the global power and on ...[text shortened]... ng in the expectation that it could change for the better and invert a sad and dangerous trend.
    I didn't say that the USA was the only one. I said it was a state explicitly founded on those principles (altho I'll agree - if it were smaller and less powerful it wouldn't nearly matter as much.) But I don't want a political or historical argument - I am specifically making a spiritual point that those who claim to be "apolitical" are hindering human freedom. Compassion entails political responsibility. You can't claim to care and then not be political (unless you don't really care.)
  6. Standard memberPalynka
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    09 Oct '09 16:47
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    I didn't say that the USA was the only one. I said it was a state explicitly founded on those principles (altho I'll agree - if it were smaller and less powerful it wouldn't nearly matter as much.) But I don't want a political or historical argument - I am specifically making a spiritual point that those who claim to be "apolitical" are hindering human ...[text shortened]... ility. You can't claim to care and then not be political (unless you don't really care.)
    I'm not a religious person but, from my perspective, I don't see Jesus' message as being political. In fact, I see Jesus as a very apolitical figure. "My kingdom is not of this world", "Render unto Caesar[...]", etc.

    To some extent, I agree that this doesn't mean they should be silent, but it seems to me as if a political organization or movement is not the way Jesus' set out to promote Christian values.

    Of course, I feel like a religious nut whenever I talk about what Jesus wanted.
  7. Donationrwingett
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    09 Oct '09 16:52
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I'm not a religious person but, from my perspective, I don't see Jesus' message as being political. In fact, I see Jesus as a very apolitical figure. "My kingdom is not of this world", "Render unto Caesar[...]", etc.

    To some extent, I agree that this doesn't mean they should be silent, but it seems to me as if a political organization or movement is not t ...[text shortened]... ues.

    Of course, I feel like a religious nut whenever I talk about what Jesus wanted.
    Jesus was an anarchist. His reformations took place entirely outside of the political institutions of the world. Parliaments can never legislate the kingdom of God into existence.
  8. Standard memberWulebgr
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    09 Oct '09 16:551 edit
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    You can't claim to care and then not be political (unless you don't really care.)
    Being political, as a follower of Jesus, does not require partisan politics. But, assuredly, it does require that one not be on the side of evil.



    The Bush Doctrine in foreign policy was evil.
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    09 Oct '09 17:15
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I'm not a religious person but, from my perspective, I don't see Jesus' message as being political. In fact, I see Jesus as a very apolitical figure. "My kingdom is not of this world", "Render unto Caesar[...]", etc.

    To some extent, I agree that this doesn't mean they should be silent, but it seems to me as if a political organization or movement is not t ...[text shortened]... ues.

    Of course, I feel like a religious nut whenever I talk about what Jesus wanted.
    Personally I don't care what a dead person wants - not much! I am talking about the responsibilities that living people have now. Using any excuse (Jesus's supposed political philosophy, or Hank Williams Sr, or Harry Potter's) to avoid your responsibility is still just a lame excuse.
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    09 Oct '09 17:50
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Being political, as a follower of Jesus, does not require partisan politics. But, assuredly, it does require that one not be on the side of evil.



    The Bush Doctrine in foreign policy was evil.
    I don't recall any biblical recommendations to join a fire-brigade either but does that mean if your neighbor's house catches fire you should just break out the marshmallows? What are going to do when your house catches?
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    09 Oct '09 20:27
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    I don't recall any biblical recommendations to join a fire-brigade either but does that mean if your neighbor's house catches fire you should just break out the marshmallows? What are going to do when your house catches?
    well if my house goes on fire i know who to call, ghost busters, for that's what this argument amounts to, a non reality. Tell the forum Jack, what era of peace has been ushered in by your Messiah?
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    10 Oct '09 02:19
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    I didn't say that the USA was the only one. I said it was a state explicitly founded on those principles (altho I'll agree - if it were smaller and less powerful it wouldn't nearly matter as much.) But I don't want a political or historical argument - I am specifically making a spiritual point that those who claim to be "apolitical" are hindering human ...[text shortened]... ility. You can't claim to care and then not be political (unless you don't really care.)
    You make some assumptions here. You assume that by electing "W" President, the general popluce was asleep at the wheel. However, with Obama the populace rose up and demanded better some how. So tell me, how is Obama different that "W"? Do they not both spend like drunken sailors? "W" passed one of the largest entitlement policies in US history and Obama promises to do him one better. They both bail out corporations and they both are running Iraq and Afghanistan pretty much the same. At the end of the day, what you are left with in terms of differences is that Obama talks a good game and is "likeable" when the reality is that they are pretty much both headed in the same direction.

    Secondly, you say that political activism is required to be compassionate and spiritual. All I can say is, just try telling that to Christ. What political entity did he attack or defend? Christ saw that the "freedom" you speak of does not come from man, rather, it comes from God. This means that you can be owned by the most repressive regime, the Roman Empire, and still find freedom in God. The battle does not revolve around flesh and blood, rather, it revolves around the battle over our hearts and minds. Politically, I think you are taking the approach that political change will effect the hearts and minds of the people when that is not the case. Any political/economic system is only as good as the hearts and minds of the people at its helm. The change needs to start from the ground up, not from the top down.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    10 Oct '09 10:21
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Two observations:

    Is is clear now how much the world hates George Bush for what he did?
    Is is also clear now how much the world expects from the USA?

    Now some spiritual questions:

    I believe the world looks to America because of the promise contained in our founding documents - the promise that their is a political solution that allows people to ...[text shortened]... lief and their followers be ashamed? Isn't blood on their hands? Or do they even care?
    1. Yes,the worlrd looks to America in many ways-like if anyones got the cash to fix this problem-its America.
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    10 Oct '09 14:40
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    1. Yes,the worlrd looks to America in many ways-like if anyones got the cash to fix this problem-its America.
    i only look to America for the cartoons!
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    10 Oct '09 14:54
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i only look to America for the cartoons!
    Most are only interested in the US's money.
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