Pelagianism

Originally posted by rwingett
.. Thus we have a scenario where a non-christian who leads a good life is condemned to hell, ...

Im sure you are familiar with the parable of the Good Samaritan. Do you get the impression from this parable that a non-CHristian that leads a good life is condemned to hell?

Also, Im pretty sure that you know the story CHrist told of the Rich man and Lazarus in which the rich selfish man was condemned to hell.

Here is a passage in which Christ rebukes the disciples for condemning others:
Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Try to view Christianity in the light of the teachings of Christ .. it helps.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Is Athens still under siege?

What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im sure you are familiar with the parable of the Good Samaritan. Do you get the impression from this parable that a non-CHristian that leads a good life is condemned to hell?

Also, Im pretty sure that you know the story CHrist told of the Rich man and Lazarus in which the rich selfish man was condemned to hell.

Here is a passage in which Christ rebuk ...[text shortened]... us is for us.

Try to view Christianity in the light of the teachings of Christ .. it helps.

Are you claiming that faith in Christ is not a prerequisite for admittance to heaven? If not, then there seems to be only one alternative. Especially now that Limbo has been officially scrapped.

Originally posted by rwingett
Are you claiming that faith in Christ is not a prerequisite for admittance to heaven? If not, then there seems to be only one alternative. Especially now that Limbo has been officially scrapped.

Did the Samaritans in the time of Christ know anything of Christ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did the Samaritans in the time of Christ know anything of Christ?

Is faith in Christ a prerequisite for admittance to heaven, or is it not?

Originally posted by rwingett
Is faith in Christ a prerequisite for admittance to heaven, or is it not?

Many will disagree but I define faith in Christ as DOING what Christ commanded. Christ said that the faithful are those that DO the will of His father in heaven. There are those who do what Christ commanded naturally because they have the 'work of the law written in their hearts' as stated in Romans 2:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..

These people who through good conscience do the will of Christ will not be condemned. The kingdom will be filled with good people who have demonstrated love for God and their neighbour, regardless of their religion.

Yes .. Faith in Christ (which I define to be the act of following Christs commandments) is a prerequisite to salvation. But Faith in Christ which is just a declaration of faith with your mouth is not a prerequisite to salvation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Many will disagree but I define faith in Christ as DOING what Christ commanded. Christ said that the faithful are those that DO the will of His father in heaven. There are those who do what Christ commanded naturally because they have the 'work of the law written in their hearts' as stated in Romans 2:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, hrist which is just a declaration of faith with your mouth is not a prerequisite to salvation.

This is clearly contradictory. Good people can gain admittance to the kingdom regardless of their religion? But faith in Christ is still necessary, which clearly excludes non-christian religions, or people with no religion. Or are you claiming that people who do good, but denounce Christ, are still following Christ's commandments? Which means they are eligible for the kingdom without a professed faith in Christ. Which means that a faith in Christ is, in fact, irrelevant, and that good works alone are a requirement.

Originally posted by rwingett
This is clearly contradictory. Good people can gain admittance to the kingdom regardless of their religion? But faith in Christ is still necessary, which clearly excludes non-christian religions, or people with no religion. Or are you claiming that people who do good, but denounce Christ, are still following Christ's commandments? Which means they are eligi ...[text shortened]... ns that a faith in Christ is, in fact, irrelevant, and that good works alone are a requirement.

I dont know of any religion that denounces Christ.
If someone denouces Christ with their mouth but still does good and follows Christ's commandments then whether they like it or not they are a follower of Christ.

Faith in Christ - professing your faith with your mouth- is irrelevant. The way I interpret the teachings of Christ, my opinion is that good works demonstrate that you have the work of the law of God written in your heart and many will receive salvation on the basis of their good works. I wont say that faith in Christ is irrelevant

Faith in Christ and good works cannot be separated. The Good Samaritan knew nothing of Christ but yet followed the law of God, whereas the priest and Levite knew the law and did not follow it. Its the DOERS of the law that are just in the eyes of God not the talkers.

I dont have a clue about the position of an atheist doing good works but I will never say he goes to hell, neither claim to know all the scenarious that leads one to salvation but I think its far more complicated than many imagine.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: VICTORY OVER ORIGINAL SIN

VATICAN CITY, 8 DEC 2008 (VIS) - At midday today, Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, Benedict XVI appeared at the window of his study to pray the Angelus with 40,000 pilgrims gathered in St. Peter's Square below.

Today's solemnity, said the Pope, "reminds us of two fundamental truths of our faith: original sin, ... and the victory over that sin of the grace of Christ, a victory that shines out sublimely in Mary Most Holy".

"The existence of what the Church calls 'original sin'," he explained, "is unfortunately overwhelmingly obvious, if only we look around ourselves, and above all within ourselves. The experience of evil is, in fact, so consistent that it is self-evident and raises within us the question: where does it come from? For believers in particular, the question is even deeper: if God, Who is absolute good, has created everything, whence does evil come?

"The first pages of the Bible", the Holy Father added, "answer this fundamental question which faces every human generation, with the story of creation and the fall of the first fathers. God created everything for existence, in particular he created human beings in His own image. He did not create death, this entered the world through the envy of the devil who, rebelling against God, also drew men into deceit, inducing them to rebel. This is the drama of freedom, which God accepts completely for the sake of love, while promising that a Son born of woman will crush the head of the ancient serpent".

He went on: "From the beginning, the 'eternal counsel', to use Dante's expression, has a 'preordained term': the Woman predestined to become mother of the Redeemer, ... of the One Who humbled Himself to the utmost in order to lead us back to our original dignity. This Woman ... has a face and a name: 'full of grace', as the angel called her ... in Nazareth. She is the new Eve, wife of the new Adam, destined to be mother of all the redeemed, ... the first to be liberated from the original fall of our first fathers".

"In Mary Immaculate we contemplate the reflection of the Beauty that saves the world: the beauty of God that shines out on the face of Christ".

ANG/MARY IMMACULATE/... VIS 081209 (390)



MARY HELPS CHRISTIANS BECOME THE SOUL OF THE WORLD

VATICAN CITY, 8 DEC 2008 (VIS) - Early this afternoon, the Holy Father travelled to Rome's Piazza di Spagna to pay his traditional homage at the statue of Mary Immaculate.


Before arriving in the square, the Holy Father stopped briefly at the Church of the Most Holy Trinity to greet the Dominican Friars and the members of the Via Condotti Storeowners Association. Once in the square, in the presence of thousands of faithful, he blessed a basket of roses which was placed at the foot of the column bearing Mary's statue.

Benedict XVI spoke of his visit three months ago to the French shrine of Lourdes for the 150th anniversary of the apparition of the Virgin to Bernadette Soubirous, the celebrations of which have lasted throughout 2008 and come to an end today. "Belief in Mary's Immaculate Conception existed many centuries before the Lourdes apparitions", he said, "but those apparitions came by way of a divine seal after my venerated predecessor Blessed Pius IX defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception on 8 December 1854".

In Mary, he went on, we recognise "the 'smile of God', the immaculate reflection of the divine light, in her we find new hope amidst the problems and dramas of the world". Commenting then on the offer of roses to the Virgin, he said "all roses have their thorns ... which for us represent the difficulties, sufferings and evils that have marked and continue to mark the lives of individuals and of our communities. To a mother we present our joys but we also entrust our concerns, certain of finding in her the comfort not to lose heart and the support to continue our journey".

The Pope then entrusted to Mary "the 'smallest' of our city: first and foremost children, especially those who are seriously ill, the disadvantaged and those suffering the consequences of difficult family situations", also "the elderly who are alone, ... immigrants struggling to adjust, families striving to make ends meet, and those who cannot find or have lost employment".

He continued: "Mary, teach us to show solidarity towards those in difficulty, to bridge the ever-increasing social disparities; help us to cultivate a more lively sense of the common good, of respect for the common weal, ... and to make our contribution for a more just and united society".

"Your beauty", Pope Benedict went on, "ensures us that the victory of love is possible, indeed that it is certain. It assures us that grace is stronger than sin and that hence redemption from any form of slavery is possible. Mary, you help us to believe in goodness more trustingly; you encourage us to remain vigilant and not to give in to the temptation of facile forms of evasion, to face reality ... with courage and responsibility".

"Be a loving mother to our young people, that they may have the courage to be 'sentinels of the morrow'", the Pope concluded, "and give this virtue to all Christians that they may become the soul of the world at this difficult moment of history".

AC/IMMACULATE CONCEPTION/PIAZZA DI SPAGNA VIS 081209 (530)

Originally posted by rwingett
We are not born into sin. We grow into sin. We are inherently good and without sin at birth. We subsequently commit sins of lesser or greater degrees. Some which would be sufficient to condemn a man to hell, but most of which would not, except by the most tyrannical standards.

The end result is that the only way to salvation, by your standard, is throug ...[text shortened]... a very poor template for a moral code (of which, your god certainly does not lead by example).

Perhaps before we enter this discussion it might be a good idea to clarify what it is you mean by "sin". Are you admitting that people sin? Are you saying you believe "sin" exists?

Originally posted by rwingett
Love one's fellow man as oneself. What if you do not love yourself? Where does that leave you in relation to your fellow man? If you think you are a worthless sinner, condemned from birth, then woe to your fellow man.

Original sin does not lead to the realization that we are imperfect and make mistakes. It leads to he realization that our mistakes (or l ...[text shortened]... ounce that although they are not perfect, at least they are saved. I'm sure you know the type.

actually it is a very valid point or rather points you make.

how does a Christian love ones self when they have feelings of worthlessness or self loathing? the answer is in realising that those who have a relationship with God are precious, very precious to him, this is evident in many scriptures and acts, none more so in the act of sending his son as a propitiatory sacrifice, to make atonement for any sin.

yet feelings of worthlessness may still prevail, however i cannot see how this correlates to original sin, as the factors are usually complex and varied, for example sexual abuse during childhood which may create a void and feelings of worthlessness, or when one is subjected to constant berating, excessive and harsh criticism, or abusive exploitation in one form or another, and as a consequence many fall into self destructive behavior that they feel powerless to correct.

however these circumstances have absolutely nothing to do with original sin or its effects on our lives in the sense of the individual being conscious of sinning and making mistakes which results in self berating and condemnation, no we must be quite clear that they exist as a result from external sources.

i have long battled against those Christians who erroneously advocate hell as either a literal place of torment or a method of condemnation in any sense. once we are dead, we are dead, biblically and logically this is self evident and can readily be deduced from scripture.

as for those who claim perfection, they too persist in their errors and as a result it does not surprise me that it produces self righteousness and arrogance, for until sin and imperfection are eradicated, every single human being will succumb to involuntarily making mistakes as a natural consequence. if they are free from their sin, then why are they still dieing? why do they still make mistakes? to claim anything other is non sensible and as you rightly say, arrogant in the extreme.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The type of Christianity a lot of posters here like requires that human beings think of themselves as utterly worthless without the magical intervention of their Super Duper Friend. Original Sin is a necessary component of such a self-loathing belief system.

Thank goodness you are here with your wisdom and knowledge to save all the poor christians from thier misguided preferences and the "ravings" of Paul...It's a rare treat to read such selective referenced nonsensicle sweeping statements.

Originally posted by divegeester
Thank goodness you are here with your wisdom and knowledge to save all the poor christians from thier misguided preferences and the "ravings" of Paul...It's a rare treat to read such selective referenced nonsensicle sweeping statements.

If only I could also introduce them to the merits of the Great Spellchecker as well.

Originally posted by whodey
So we are not born into sin? Perhaps you are one or you can point to others who have never sinned to help substantiate your claims?

Furthermore, it is evident that mans fall in the garden introduced death into the world so one must concede this point whether or not original sin is passed down from generation to generation or not.

whodey: Furthermore, it is evident that mans fall in the garden introduced death into the world

It's hardly "evident". In fact, it's absolute nonsense.