Originally posted by josephw
I have no use for the idea of original sin, but I can see where it came from.

What the Bible actually teaches is that we are born with a sin nature. That is, because of Adam's disobedience, we inherit a sin nature which seperates us from that relationship with God that we were created to enjoy.

It is the sin nature that seperates us from God, not some ...[text shortened]... imputing the righteousness of Jesus to those who believe.

That's as simple as I can put it.

You're just substituting the words "sin nature" for "Original Sin" while retaining ALL the same theological concepts. An inherited "sin nature which separates us from that relationship with God" is the exact same concept as "Original Sin".

Originally posted by no1marauder
The type of Christianity a lot of posters here like requires that human beings think of themselves as utterly worthless without the magical intervention of their Super Duper Friend. Original Sin is a necessary component of such a self-loathing belief system.

Yeah, I was discussing that very thing in a few other threads. So I thought I'd dedicate a new thread solely to the topic of original sin.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The type of Christianity a lot of posters here like requires that human beings think of themselves as utterly worthless without the magical intervention of their Super Duper Friend. Original Sin is a necessary component of such a self-loathing belief system.

ummm i would like to completely and utterly vanquish this type of thinking, for to the Christian there are two laws and many principles, one must love ones fellow man as oneself, and one must love ones god, please note i am not a preachy style person but try to be reasonable, therefore if i may be as bold to ask, how is it possible for a person to love his fellow man, like himself if he does not first and fore-mostly have self love and respect? it is simply impossible my friend and i do not know where this idea originated from, but it is untenable for a Christian to entertain.

as regards original sin, it simply means that we are imperfect and make mistakes, therefore rather than leading to a realization of self loathing, it leads to a general sympathy and empathy, for all have sinned and fall short, or in other words all make mistakes, on the contrary it leads to self respect as we are more readily able to admit our mistakes, pride or other factors not being a hindrance, knowing that these mistakes are inevitable, which also makes it easier to 'overlook', the idiosyncrasies and imperfections of others, which may facilitate a greater respect for others!

Originally posted by no1marauder
You're just substituting the words "sin nature" for "Original Sin" while retaining ALL the same theological concepts. An inherited "sin nature which separates us from that relationship with God" is the exact same concept as "Original Sin".

I don't like "original sin". 😞

I prefer a term that more closely describes our condition.

Originally posted by josephw
I don't like "original sin". 😞

I prefer a term that more closely describes our condition.

the Fall

Originally posted by rwingett
I wish to discuss the topic of Original Sin, started in other threads, here.

It appears to me that Original Sin is entirely a creation of the post-Pauline christian churches. Although 'sin' is mentioned in the Old Testament, Original Sin, at most, is only implied. Judaism itself does not have a doctrine of original sin. Neither does Islam. It seems that ...[text shortened]... monism, this particular aspect seems far superior to what christianity came up with.

So we are not born into sin? Perhaps you are one or you can point to others who have never sinned to help substantiate your claims?

Furthermore, it is evident that mans fall in the garden introduced death into the world so one must concede this point whether or not original sin is passed down from generation to generation or not.

Originally posted by whodey
So we are not born into sin? Perhaps you are one or you can point to others who have never sinned to help substantiate your claims?

Furthermore, it is evident that mans fall in the garden introduced death into the world so one must concede this point whether or not original sin is passed down from generation to generation or not.

Get away whodey, a new born baby cannot be a sinner🙂

Furthermore, it is evident that the Abrahamic religions are the result of the evolution of the fixed expression of the devastation of the Human before Death together with the fixed expression of the admiration of the Human before Life, mixed with low awareness of the Science, of the Knowlegde and of the real understanding of the Human nature.
The fact that some religious principals are spirited is a further proof of the dynamics and the level of the spiritualism of the individual.

Created by smart and, in some cases, wise individuals -but anyway by humans-, each religion in order to expand has different but anyway human inspired doctrines aiming to conquer the attention of the society of their time.
And, somehow, all of them man made hypothesies -the religions and the "interpretation" of the so called "holy scriptures"-, they became through the social process and due time as twisted and turned as their interpretators and their delegates. For, in fact, they are used in order to promote the secular interests of their believers -in the name of the "god". BS big time🙂

Originally posted by whodey
So we are not born into sin? Perhaps you are one or you can point to others who have never sinned to help substantiate your claims?

Furthermore, it is evident that mans fall in the garden introduced death into the world so one must concede this point whether or not original sin is passed down from generation to generation or not.

We are not born into sin. We grow into sin. We are inherently good and without sin at birth. We subsequently commit sins of lesser or greater degrees. Some which would be sufficient to condemn a man to hell, but most of which would not, except by the most tyrannical standards.

The end result is that the only way to salvation, by your standard, is through submission to your tyrant god. The actions that one performs in the course of one's life, however good or however evil, are irrelevant as long as one submits in the end. Thus we have a scenario where a non-christian who leads a good life is condemned to hell, but a serial killer who has a conversion and submits to your god is granted a first class ticket to heaven.

Your system is not rewarding good behavior (or punishing bad), it is rewarding obedience and submission. That might play well in a fascist dictatorship (which your religion is), but offers a very poor template for a moral code (of which, your god certainly does not lead by example).

Originally posted by rwingett


Even though I have no use for Mormonism, this particular aspect seems far superior to what christianity came up with.

All the good ideas get banned. Origen's apotokatastasis is another attractive early Christian idea that was trashed. Same goes for Islam -- humane and blindingly obvious teachings (like the Sufi notion that all religions intersect where it matters) are turned into evidence of heresy.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
All the good ideas get banned. Origen's apotokatastasis is another attractive early Christian idea that was trashed. Same goes for Islam -- humane and blindingly obvious teachings (like the Sufi notion that all religions intersect where it matters) are turned into evidence of heresy.

😵

Originally posted by black beetle
😵

Is Athens still under siege?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ummm i would like to completely and utterly vanquish this type of thinking, for to the Christian there are two laws and many principles, one must love ones fellow man as oneself, and one must love ones god, please note i am not a preachy style person but try to be reasonable, therefore if i may be as bold to ask, how is it possible for a person to l ...[text shortened]... idiosyncrasies and imperfections of others, which may facilitate a greater respect for others!

Love one's fellow man as oneself. What if you do not love yourself? Where does that leave you in relation to your fellow man? If you think you are a worthless sinner, condemned from birth, then woe to your fellow man.

Original sin does not lead to the realization that we are imperfect and make mistakes. It leads to he realization that our mistakes (or lack thereof) are completely irrelevant because we are doomed to hell regardless of them. Thus we have the situation where some arrogant christians will announce that although they are not perfect, at least they are saved. I'm sure you know the type.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
All the good ideas get banned. Origen's apotokatastasis is another attractive early Christian idea that was trashed. Same goes for Islam -- humane and blindingly obvious teachings (like the Sufi notion that all religions intersect where it matters) are turned into evidence of heresy.

Care to expand on apotokatastasis? That's a new one on me.

Originally posted by rwingett
Care to expand on apotokatastasis? That's a new one on me.

I spelt it wrong: apokatastasis. Restoration to the primal condition -- in Christianity, the ultimate reconciliation of good and evil forces in God. Anathematised in 549.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Is Athens still under siege?

Yes. It is devastating to see a moron cop killing a 15 years old kid; and it is enraging to see some rioters destroying your city because the administration of your country is a bunch of isufferable dolts which they cannot do their job