1. Cape Town
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    12 Apr '12 13:41
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Let's also assume that the term "Appropriate Punishment" has some judicial value.
    What would be "appropriate" for a Hitler?
    ...
    Does the punishment fit the crime?
    I think not.
    I think that one cannot really make any claims about whether the punishment fits the crime before one determines what judicial value the punishment serves.
    I personally do not see any judicial value whatsoever in punishment after death unless there is an attempt to correct a persons behaviour in preparation for heaven. But this also assumes that any such punishment will be effective in correcting said behaviour and that a certain behaviour in heaven is desired. All of which we know practically nothing about.
  2. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    12 Apr '12 15:05
    Originally posted by CalJust
    No, it is the way people have interpreted it.

    Jesus spoke about "outer darkness" and "wailing and gnashing of teeth", which seems to indicate a separation and, yes, severe remorse and regret.

    Let's for a minute just take a closer look at Hitler, who seems (in this thread at least) to be the most likely candidate for Hell.

    Let's also assume that the ...[text shortened]... ood book about that: Love wins. A good read. Also his website: mars hill.
    I have used this very argument in claiming that eternal Hell is inherently unjust. Nevertheless, there remains these words of Jesus:

    Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    I am interested to see how you fit this verse into your theory.
  3. Standard memberCalJust
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    12 Apr '12 18:311 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I have used this very argument in claiming that eternal Hell is inherently unjust. Nevertheless, there remains these words of Jesus:

    Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    I am interested to see how you fit this verse into your theory.
    Actually, it is not my theory. As a Christian, I have been extremely disturbed by the teaching of hell in the mainline churches, both Protestant and Catholic. Fortunately, I have found others who have been equally disttressed who have found the answer, amongst them Rob Bell, as I already mentioned (Google him).

    Without going into too much detail, firstly the "fire" is stated as being eternal, but not necessarily the inhabitants, and secondly, it says quite clearly whom it was prepared for, not fallen man but the devil and his angels.

    Jesus said: He who has the Son has life, and he who does NOT have the son "hath NOT life." (Rather, as is said in Revelations, this is the "second death". This seems to indicate that eternal life is reserved for the saved, not the damned.

    However, I readily accept that this teaching is by far a minority view in the church, and most people favour an eternal damnation.

    More's the pity. It really is a most terrible doctrine, which alone would put me off Christianity.

    No judge on Earth would condemn ANY man to 100 million years of cruel and unusual punishment. Is God less just than the least Judge on Earth??
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Apr '12 19:131 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Actually, it is not my theory. As a Christian, I have been extremely disturbed by the teaching of hell in the mainline churches, both Protestant and Catholic. Fortunately, I have found others who have been equally disttressed who have found the answer, amongst them Rob Bell, as I already mentioned (Google him).

    Without going into too much detail, firstly n years of cruel and unusual punishment. Is God less just than the least Judge on Earth??
    I am sorry that you are disturbed about anyone receiving punishment in hell,
    but you need to get over it, because it appears there will be many who will not
    repent.

    In a story Jesus tells of the begger, named Lazarus, and the unnamed rich
    man, who asks for mercy by saying, "Send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of
    his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame."
    (Luke 16:24 NASB)

    But mercy did not come. So in your eyes, you must see Jesus as a lesser
    judge than any on Earth, since He makes the flames of Hell that ere orignally
    just designed for Satan and his demonic angels, also punishment for man.
  5. Joined
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    12 Apr '12 19:28
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    The point Pell makes is simply that gravely evil deeds should not be unpunished. If Hell exists, it is precisely for the Hitlers of the world (although Pell would have to admit much less grave sins are damnable too according to Catholic doctrine) but out of charity he can hope that reparation is achieved alternatively through purgation.
    Once again:
    Pell's argument and belief are based upon the idea that life would be "radically unjust" if hell doesn't exist for the Hitler's of the world. Pell does not want to believe in a "system where Hitler got away with it for free". Pell does not want to believe in a system "where [Hitler] was obliterated and didn't exist anymore" because "he would have got away with too much". Hitler did exist. Pell wants to believe that hell exists for the Hitler's of the world.


    Pell's very argument for the existence of hell is so that there is a place for the Hitler's of the world to go. For him to then turn around and say he hopes nobody in hell is at best ridiculously disingenuous.
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    12 Apr '12 19:29
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    How is he instilling fear?
    How is he not?
  7. Standard membergalveston75
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    12 Apr '12 19:35
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    I would have thought you had read this.
    Of course I have many, many times. So this eternal fire is a real burning place that even the devil and his angels will burn in forever?
  8. Standard membergalveston75
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    12 Apr '12 19:37
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    And you JWs claim to know the Holy Bible and yet you have to ask this question. How shameful.

    P.S. What you know is what the Watchtower tells you the Holy Bible says.
    You read the "AWAKE" publication of the Watchtower Society.
    Read between the lines of what I'm asking. I have read the Bible all my life and there is not one scripture I haven't read many times.
    I know the answer but just looking to have a conversation and not looking for the insults that you seem to can't help from doing....
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    12 Apr '12 19:452 edits
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Actually, it is not my theory. As a Christian, I have been extremely disturbed by the teaching of hell in the mainline churches, both Protestant and Catholic. Fortunately, I have found others who have been equally disttressed who have found the answer, amongst them Rob Bell, as I already mentioned (Google him).

    Without going into too much detail, firstly n years of cruel and unusual punishment. Is God less just than the least Judge on Earth??
    Without going into too much detail, firstly the "fire" is stated as being eternal, but not necessarily the inhabitants, and secondly, it says quite clearly whom it was prepared for, not fallen man but the devil and his angels.

    You're kidding yourself here.

    Matthew 25
    32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    It's clear that the righteous will go into eternal life and the unrighteous will go to eternal punishment.

    If one reads Matthew 25:31-46 in its entirety it's also clear how Jesus intends to divide the righteous from the unrighteous. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus. Instead they follow the teachings of Paul and others.

    Matthew 25
    31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

    41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
  10. Standard membergalveston75
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    12 Apr '12 19:461 edit
    The Origin of Hell
    “HELL,” explains the New Catholic Encyclopedia, is the word “used to signify the place of the damned.” A Protestant encyclopedia defines hell as “the place of future punishment for the wicked.” But belief in such a place of punishment after death is not limited to the main churches of Christendom. It originated many centuries before Christendom came into existence.

    The Mesopotamian Hell

    About 2,000 years before the birth of Jesus, the Sumerians and the Babylonians believed in an underworld that they called the Land of No Return. This ancient belief is reflected in the Sumerian and the Akkadian poems known as “The Epic of Gilgamesh” and the “Descent of Ishtar to the Underworld.” They describe this abode of the dead as a house of darkness, “the house which none leave who have entered it.”
    As to the conditions prevailing there, an ancient Assyrian text states that “the nether world was filled with terror.” The Assyrian prince who was supposedly granted a view of this subterranean abode of the dead testified that his “legs trembled” at what he saw. Describing Nergal, the king of the underworld, he recorded: “With a fierce cry he shrieked at me wrathfully like a furious storm.”

    Egyptian and Oriental Religions

    The ancient Egyptians believed in the immortality of the soul, and they had their own concept of the afterworld. The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Egyptian funerary texts depict the way to the next world as beset by awful perils: fearsome monsters, lakes of fire, gates that cannot be passed except by the use of magical formulas, and a sinister ferryman whose evil intent must be thwarted by magic.”
    The Indo-Iranian religions developed various beliefs on punishment after death.

    Concerning Hinduism, the French Encyclopædia Universalis (Universal Encyclopedia) states: “There are innumerable descriptions of the 21 hells imagined by the Hindus. Sinners are devoured by wild beasts and by snakes, laboriously roasted, sawed into parts, tormented by thirst and hunger, boiled in oil, or ground to powder in iron or stone vessels.”
    Jainism and Buddhism both have their versions of hell, where impenitent sinners are tormented. Zoroastrianism, founded in Iran, or Persia, also has a hell—a cold, ill-smelling place where the souls of sinners are tormented.
    Interestingly, it would appear that the torments of the Egyptian, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian versions of hell are not everlasting. According to these religions, after a period of suffering, the souls of sinners move on to some other place or state, depending on the particular religion’s concept of human destiny. Their ideas of hell resemble Catholicism’s purgatory.

    Greek, Etruscan, and Roman Hells

    The ancient Greeks believed in the survival of a soul (psykhe, the word they also used for the butterfly). They called Hades the realm of the dead and believed it was ruled over by a god of the same name. In his book Orpheus—A General History of Religions, French scholar Salomon Reinach wrote of the Greeks: “A widely spread belief was that [the soul] entered the infernal regions after crossing the river Styx in the boat of the old ferryman Charon, who exacted as the fare an obolus [coin], which was placed in the mouth of the dead person. In the infernal regions it appeared before the three judges of the place . . . ; if condemned for its crimes, it had to suffer in Tartarus. . . . The Greeks even invented a Limbo, the abode of children who had died in infancy, and a Purgatory, where a certain mild chastisement purified souls.” According to The World Book Encyclopedia, souls that ended up in Tartarus “suffered eternal torment.”
    In Italy the Etruscans, whose civilization preceded that of the Romans, also believed in punishment after death. The Dictionnaire des Religions (Dictionary of Religions) states: “The extreme care that the Etruscans took of their dead is explained by their conception of the nether regions. Like the Babylonians, they considered these to be places of torture and despair for the manes [spirits of the dead]. The only relief for them could come from propitiatory offerings made by their descendants.” Another reference work declares: “Etruscan tombs show scenes of horror that inspired Christian paintings of hell.”
    The Romans adopted the Etruscan hell, calling it Orcus or Infernus. They also borrowed the Greek myths about Hades, the king of the underworld, calling him Orcus, or Pluto.

    The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures

    What about the Jews before Jesus’ day? Concerning them, we read in the Encyclopædia Britannica (1970): “From the 5th century B.C. onward, the Jews were in close contact with the Persians and the Greeks, both of whom had well-developed ideas of the hereafter. . . . By the time of Christ, the Jews had acquired a belief that wicked souls would be punished after death in Gehenna.” However, the Encyclopædia Judaica states: “No suggestion of this later notion of Gehenna is to be found in Scripture.”
    This latter statement is correct. There is no suggestion in the Hebrew Scriptures of a postmortem punishment for a soul in a fiery hell. This frightening doctrine goes back to the post-Flood religions of Babylonia, not to the Bible. Christendom’s doctrine of punishment in hell originated with the early Babylonians. The Catholic idea of remedial suffering in purgatory goes back to the early Egyptian and Oriental religions. Limbo was copied from Greek mythology. Prayers and offerings for the dead were practiced by the Etruscans.

    A burning hell that most Christian religions adopted and now promote is not a Bible teaching......
  11. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    12 Apr '12 20:12
    Originally posted by galveston75
    The Origin of Hell
    “HELL,” explains the New Catholic Encyclopedia, is the word “used to signify the place of the damned.” A Protestant encyclopedia defines hell as “the place of future punishment for the wicked.” But belief in such a place of punishment after death is not limited to the main churches of Christendom. It originated many centuries before C ...[text shortened]... burning hell that most Christian religions adopted and now promote is not a Bible teaching......
    None of this addresses Matt 25:41.
  12. R
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    12 Apr '12 21:42
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Once again:
    [quote]Pell's argument and belief are based upon the idea that life would be "radically unjust" if hell doesn't exist for the Hitler's of the world. Pell does not want to believe in a "system where Hitler got away with it for free". Pell does not want to believe in a system "where [Hitler] was obliterated and didn't exist anymore" because "he ...[text shortened]... turn around and say he hopes nobody in hell is at best ridiculously disingenuous.
    Pell's very argument for the existence of hell is so that there is a place for the Hitler's of the world to go. For him to then turn around and say he hopes nobody in hell is at best ridiculously disingenuous.

    No, it isn't. He says that the scales of justice require Hitler's punishment, Hell is an appropriate place but it is possible to hope that Hitler went to Purgatory. Reread the Cardinal's words. You are attributing to him claims he never made.
  13. R
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    12 Apr '12 21:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Purgatory was invented by the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church to bring
    in more money by praying your loved ones out and into heaven I understand.
    Just like paying for indulgences that Martin Luther was against and got booted
    out for complaining about. I am not saying that there are not real Christians in the
    RMC but the "Tares" sometimes seem to overide the "Wheat".
    Really? The doctrine of purgatory predates the phenomenon of selling indulgences by quite a substantial period of time.
  14. Standard membergalveston75
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    12 Apr '12 22:012 edits
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    None of this addresses Matt 25:41.
    Oh but yes it does. If one were to see what he bible says about God and his love for man then this thought of God burning someone forever and ever who had sinned then the scripture that says "the wages of sin is death" would not be true.
    To be truthful the scripture would have to say "the wages of sin is eternal torture".
    Adam was told he would die if he did indeed sin, which he did. But no mention of his future being in some burning hell or as a matter of fact no mention any that died before Jesus came to earth of ever going to some place like this...ever.

    But here is one insight into God's thinking on such a horrible punishment:

    Jeremiah 7:31
    New Living Translation (NLT)

    31 They have built pagan shrines at Topheth, the garbage dump in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they burn their sons and daughters in the fire. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

    So for Jesus to make a comment like he did, what was he speaking about? What did the term "hell" mean to him and the Jews of that time and what is is the "Lake of Fire" that is spoken of in the Bible that many confuse as hell?

    A side note, if hell was the place that many imagine with Satan being in control of, why is Satan and his angels seen in it and suffering?
  15. Standard membergalveston75
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    12 Apr '12 22:042 edits
    So what was Jesus referring when he spoke of a person’s being thrown “into hell”? The original Greek word translated “hell” at Mark 9:47 is Geenna. This word comes from the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, meaning “Valley of Hinnom.” The Valley of Hinnom hugged the outskirts of ancient Jerusalem. In the days of the Israelite kings, it was used for child sacrifice—a disgusting practice that God condemned. God said that he would execute those who performed such an act of false worship. The Valley of Hinnom would then be called “the valley of slaughter,” where “the carcases of this people” would lie unburied. (Jeremiah 7:30-34, King James Version) Jehovah thus foretold that the Valley of Hinnom would become a place, not for the torture of live victims, but for the mass disposal of dead bodies.
    In Jesus’ day, the inhabitants of Jerusalem used the Valley of Hinnom as a garbage dump. They threw the bodies of some vile criminals into this dump and kept a fire constantly burning there to dispose of the refuse and the carcasses.
    When Jesus spoke of the undying worms and unquenchable fire, he was apparently alluding to Isaiah 66:24. Regarding “the carcases of the men that have transgressed against [God],” Isaiah says that “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.” (KJ) Jesus and his listeners knew that these words in Isaiah referred to the treatment of the carcasses of those not deserving a burial.
    Therefore, Jesus used the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, as a fitting symbol of death without hope of a resurrection. He drove this point home when he warned that God “can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28, NAB) Gehenna is a symbol of eternal death, not eternal torture.
    Is “the eternal fire” Jesus warned of literal or symbolic? Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.” Do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures? Or was Jesus using the term “fire” symbolically? Certainly “the sheep” and “the goats” mentioned in the same discourse are not literal; they are word pictures that represent two types of people. (Matthew 25:32, 33) The eternal fire that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.

    In what sense do the wicked “go off to eternal punishment”?

    Although most translations use the word “punishment” at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word kolasin is “checking the growth of trees,” or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheeplike ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goatlike ones suffer “eternal punishment,” being forever cut off from life.

    Jesus never taught that humans have an immortal soul. However, he often did teach about the resurrection of the dead. (Luke 14:13, 14; John 5:25-29; 11:25) Why would Jesus say that the dead would be resurrected if he believed that their souls had not died?
    Jesus did not teach that God would maliciously torture the wicked forever. Rather, Jesus said: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” (John 3:16, NAB) Why would Jesus imply that those who did not believe in him would die? If he really meant that they would live forever, suffering misery in a fiery hell, would he not have said so?
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