Peter Higgs criticises Richard Dawkins

Originally posted by Agerg
The game that fundies play is one of deflecting any criticisms of their faith by {misquoting/ appealing to the past mistakes of} respectable scientists and over-generalising the terms "Chrisitanity", "theism", etc... to give themselves an air of credibility they do not deserve. In response, the game I play is one of undermining their efforts in this regard by ...[text shortened]... as creationists is all well and good, but I strongly doubt kd2acz is not a creationist.

what you are doing is classic ad-hominem and you seem to be well aware of it. you understand what the link is about yet you try remind us that the original poster might be a creationist. he might be also a vegetarian, would you like to know that too?

rjhinds is a creationist. i know he is. (at least the persona rjhinds, he might be a troll). however if he starts a discussion that has no relevance to creationism, i will listen to his arguments and counter those.




as a side note, i am not a creationist (before you ask) and i also believe dawkins is a pompous, arrogant, insulting ass. there are countless atheist out there who don't feel the need to be insulting when discussing religion.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
what you are doing is classic ad-hominem and you seem to be well aware of it. you understand what the link is about yet you try remind us that the original poster might be a creationist. he might be also a vegetarian, would you like to know that too?

rjhinds is a creationist. i know he is. (at least the persona rjhinds, he might be a troll). however if ...[text shortened]... countless atheist out there who don't feel the need to be insulting when discussing religion.

I'm well aware you're not a creationist...you're one of a limited supply of Christian moderates who frequent these boards, furthermore though I don't dislike Dawkins as much as you (his non-theist stomping books are a good read - the God Delusion bored me) I also acknowledge he can sometimes be a bit too heavy-handed in war against creationism. ***
Having made that acknowledgement (as many other atheists would), I still defend my motivation for the opening post of mine you object to. I suspect kd2acz is a fundy (and consequently feels no shame at the charge he/she believes in talking snakes, etc... (if he isn't he could have answered my initial question with a blunt "no, I don't subscribe to creationist dogma" and I'd have left it there - with an apology)). Moreover, any fundamentalist who starts threads like these does so for the same reason they start threads about Einstein's supposed faith in God (from the "God doesn't play dice" quote), and so on... - to beautify their faith by pointing out (incorrectly) that they are on the same footing as philosophers/logicians/scientists/... who have actually earned our respect.

Further, in motivating moderates to stop the rest of us from trampling their efforts before they get momentum they are also undermining your own credibility by muddying the distinction between childish dogma and rational theism.

I make no apologies for making what you think is an ad-hominem...I dislike fundamentalism, I dislike the silly and irrational arguments associated with fundamentalism, and I will trample upon the faith of people who seek to have us living in the dark ages again (and when I get the opportunity I do so in person, as well as on the internet).





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*** much as the collateral damage to non-creationists is unfortunate - the courage he and other high profile atheists have inspired in those who would otherwise suppress their disbelief and pander to the bullsh** that spews forth from the mouths of fundies is a good thing.

Originally posted by Agerg
Ok, forget the "fundamentalist" label for a moment... do you believe in, or are undecided on such propositions like a 6000 year old earth, talking snakes (that coerce people into eating naughty apples), Noah's Ark, and so on...?

I'll get to my point when I have an answer to this question

Again, what I believe is irrelevant, I am just interested in the thoughts of the posters in this forum on the topic. If you don't want to participate, tis fine with me. But me answering your questions before you would share your thoughts is a little silly, your ideas depend not on mine.

I personally thought the article to be interesting, don't you?

Originally posted by kd2acz
Again, what I believe is irrelevant, I am just interested in the thoughts of the posters in this forum on the topic. If you don't want to participate, tis fine with me. But me answering your questions before you would share your thoughts is a little silly, your ideas depend not on mine.

I personally thought the article to be interesting, don't you?

You seek to vindicate your own dogma by pointing out that Scientist A disagrees with scientist B lumping non-creationists with creationists. Any acknowledgement on our part that some scientist A has a point (as I'm sure many have done so in the past in other contexts) does nothing to elevate the credibility of your own faith.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
what you are doing is classic ad-hominem and you seem to be well aware of it. you understand what the link is about yet you try remind us that the original poster might be a creationist. he might be also a vegetarian, would you like to know that too?

rjhinds is a creationist. i know he is. (at least the persona rjhinds, he might be a troll). however if ...[text shortened]... countless atheist out there who don't feel the need to be insulting when discussing religion.

I agree that RJHinds is not as he appears to be - and much as what he says galls me when I read it - I am glad he and others who thanklessly adopt the persona of stupid fundy are undermining the respect real fundies like RBHILL, josephw, Grampy Bobby, ... think they deserve.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"In 1963 Higgs predicted the existence of a force-carrying particle, part of an invisible energy field that filled the vacuum throughout the observable universe. Without the field, or something like it, we would not be here. The field clings to the smallest fundamental particles and gives them mass. The field, which switched on moments after the big ban s

"invisible energy field that filled the vacuum throughout the observable universe."?
.

Hey Grampy...please check out this link:


http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_5.html

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm well aware you're not a creationist...you're one of a limited supply of Christian moderates who frequent these boards, furthermore though I don't dislike Dawkins as much as you (his non-theist stomping books are a good read - the God Delusion bored me) I also acknowledge he can sometimes be a bit too heavy-handed in war against creationism. ***
Having mad ...[text shortened]... pander to the bullsh** that spews forth from the mouths of fundies is a good thing.

Several months ago when I was introduced to RHP by a friend I was excited by what the website had to offer. For me that was games, forums, and the little bit of chatting I have done with people from around the world, a concept that I as well as a lot of others here equally enjoy.

Some of my first threads in the Spirituality forum had to do with the way the posters talked (posted) with each other, I was a bit dismayed by the attitudes, rudeness and spewed venom by those of opposing views and ideologies... (but not by all). Perhaps it was naivety of me to suppose anything I had to offer would make a difference in the way we talked with one another. I suppose it is silly notion to think that any change for good we as individuals/humans can make in the world starts with us/me, but it is something I believe in.

Some later threads I had inquired of atheists as to what they believed or didn’t believe. My motivation in the question was to learn and to hear from those who call themselves atheists and why. I did not and still do not fully understand the who/what/why, etc. of 'What is and Atheist'? But I am inquisitive... and would like to know more… as I have come to understand that atheism is as diverse as Christianity. Call it going to school... do you equally criticize those wanting to broaden their horizons and increase their knowledge on various subject matter?

You don't know me and I don't know you, I would never resort to calling you names because of what faith, religion, or lack thereof that you adhered to... even if I knew something about you, which I don't. I do know a little more however about you prior to this thread, gotta tell you I am not impressed. Your comments about me, your supposed ideas about me... when you don't even know me are a bit judgmental, to a fault I think. I am not a fundy!

Moreover, any fundamentalist who starts threads like these does so for the same reason they start threads about Einstein's supposed faith in God (from the "God doesn't play dice" quote), and so on... - to beautify their faith by pointing out (incorrectly) that they are on the same footing as philosophers/logicians/scientists/... who have actually earned our respect.

I started this thread for no other reason than to 'get your thoughts', nothing veiled I promise you.

To tell you a little about me so there is no 'doubt' in your mind.

I have been married to the same woman for 21 years, have 6 kids, I have done some traveling (Eastern Europe, Middle East, Europe, 2/3 thirds of the US states.), a small amount. Someday I would like to travel Asia, maybe India, Africa but we shall see.

I believe in the God of the Bible and have had experiences in my life and seen things that can only be attributed to the 'invisible' and sovereign hand of God.

As true as any experiences that you may have had in your life that are irrefutable to you, mine are to me. I do not look for rational to explain, it is as they say... it is what it is.

Now, please do me the common courtesy and lump me not in to your world view as to what you think a fundamentalist is or a Christian, because I do not fit your mold.

Do to me as you would want me to do to you and that is to grant me a little respect as if for nothing else... a fellow brother in what we call the human race. I promise you, from me you will have my respect as an individual, I will not use names, titles, stereotypes, etc. to describe you or anyone else and lump into some arbitrary group that someone has created.

In the movie 'Act of Valor', there was a poem at the end that I really liked, for me it says a lot, I like it.

So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion;respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.

Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.

When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

Native American Shawnee Chief, Tecumseh

I hope this answers any questions you may have had.


As we are on the Eve of yet another year, let us endevor to to make the world a better place, or at least that which is within our abilities. Happy New Year ya'll.

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm well aware you're not a creationist...you're one of a limited supply of Christian moderates who frequent these boards, furthermore though I don't dislike Dawkins as much as you (his non-theist stomping books are a good read - the God Delusion bored me) I also acknowledge he can sometimes be a bit too heavy-handed in war against creationism. ***
Having mad ...[text shortened]... pander to the bullsh** that spews forth from the mouths of fundies is a good thing.

I will explain one thing to your dumbasss so you know better the next time. There is no talking snake mentioned in the Holy Bible. There was Satan who, disguised as a Serpent, tempted Eve in the garden of Eden. No talking snakes. Got it? 😏

Originally posted by kd2acz
Several months ago when I was introduced to RHP by a friend I was excited by what the website had to offer. For me that was games, forums, and the little bit of chatting I have done with people from around the world, a concept that I as well as a lot of others here equally enjoy.

Some of my first threads in the Spirituality forum had to do with the way th ...[text shortened]... place, or at least that which is within our abilities. Happy New Year ya'll.

An atheist is a follower of Satan the devil. Plain and simple. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
An atheist is a follower of Satan the devil. Plain and simple. 😏

Do you believe this in the figurative or literal sense?

Originally posted by kd2acz
Do you believe this in the figurative or literal sense?

Both.

Originally posted by kd2acz
Several months ago when I was introduced to RHP by a friend I was excited by what the website had to offer. For me that was games, forums, and the little bit of chatting I have done with people from around the world, a concept that I as well as a lot of others here equally enjoy.

Some of my first threads in the Spirituality forum had to do with the way th place, or at least that which is within our abilities. Happy New Year ya'll.

I was tempted to just apologize and accept you were not of a fundamentalist mindset given your response here - but my cynicism compelled me to wait. It is good that I did because from what I have seen of your posts lately (and a vague recollection of indignation at some of your posts not so recently), as much as you dislike the label, your thinking on matters such as prophecy, Biblical reliability, and so forth is consistent with the likes of josephw, RBHILL, RJHinds, and others.

Perhaps you believe you are being subtle, and that if you come at us with a softly softly, inquire about this, inquire about that approach you can undermine our positions without objection - or cry unwarranted hostility if we do, or perhaps otherwise it takes you a while to get momentum. At any rate I stand by my position, you have one purpose with this thread - seeing what we think isn't it.

Originally posted by Agerg
I was tempted to just apologize and accept you were not of a fundamentalist mindset given your response here - but my cynicism compelled me to wait. It is good that I did because from what I have seen of your posts lately (and a vague recollection of indignation at some of your posts not so recently), as much as you dislike the label, your thinking on matters ...[text shortened]... I stand by my position, you have one purpose with this thread - seeing what we think isn't it.

Perhaps that one purpose is to get numbskulls, like yourself, saved. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Perhaps that one purpose is to get numbskulls, like yourself, saved. 😏

Sorry but you only get a troll rating of 2/10 for that one...try harder next time 🙂

Originally posted by Agerg
I was tempted to just apologize and accept you were not of a fundamentalist mindset given your response here - but my cynicism compelled me to wait. It is good that I did because from what I have seen of your posts lately (and a vague recollection of indignation at some of your posts not so recently), as much as you dislike the label, your thinking on matters ...[text shortened]... I stand by my position, you have one purpose with this thread - seeing what we think isn't it.

I am not interested in getting dragged into a debate over some perceived notion that you have of my motivations, I assure you there is nothing afoul. I will make no apologies if some of my views are similar to others here, Christians are likely to have the same ideas about things, this is an obvious observation. This is no different than some of your views being similar to some of the other posters here on RHP.

I do dislike labels (any label) because I feel it is an unfair judgment on a person based on some past experience you may have had with somebody else.

Do I dislike your positions, sometimes. Do I dislike some Christian positions, sometimes. But you know what, they are your positions and just as my experiences, exposures, etc. have fashioned who I am yours have you. I respect that, please respect me for I have given you nor anybody else here to do otherwise.

Perhaps you believe you are being subtle, and that if you come at us with a softly softly, inquire about this, inquire about that approach you can undermine our positions without objection - or cry unwarranted hostility if we do, or perhaps otherwise it takes you a while to get momentum.

I can tell you I am not being subtle on anything, I am certainly not coming at anyone, why you are so suspicious? I am not trying to undermine anything with regards to yours or anyone else's position, and trust me there will be no crying. Is your position so weak that you are worried in some way? I am only asking questions trying to learn a thing or two about people, how else to do that than ask questions?

At any rate I stand by my position, you have one purpose with this thread - seeing what we think isn't it.

Not we are getting to the heart of it, This is a no brainer! I absolutely am trying to see what you think, that is why I asked "What are your thoughts?". Is this not what all threads are about, exchanging ideas, opinions, learning from one another and such?

Can you not answer the question (OP) and take it at face value?

In closing I will add this, if there is any motivation other than the OP it is to establish a friendship, have a little dialog, camaraderie and maybe even play a game of chess. Thats all.