Philosophical nonsense

Originally posted by JS357
Is there Biblical support for God not creating space? Aren't the heavens, space? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens and the earth is what God created and put in
the empty space. No the space was not created. Like I said,
it always existed with God, according to the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The heavens and the earth is what God created and put in
the empty space. No the space was not created. Like I said,
it always existed with God, according to the Holy Spirit.

Actually RJ, the correct reading is, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Heaven is singular in this passage, but everyone keeps saying "heavens".

But about space. Can you explain how you think it "always existed with God"?

Originally posted by josephw
Actually RJ, the correct reading is, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Heaven is singular in this passage, but everyone keeps saying "heavens".

But about space. Can you explain how you think it "always existed with God"?

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body
I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a
man was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body
I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a
man was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2 NASB)

But in the beginning there was only one heaven.

Two more "heavens"were subsequently made as a result of the rebellion started by Satan.

But I wanted to know how you understood that space wasn't created.

Originally posted by josephw
But in the beginning there was only one heaven.

Two more "heavens"were subsequently made as a result of the rebellion started by Satan.

But I wanted to know how you understood that space wasn't created.

I don't know know exactly, it just came from the Holy Spirit
for some reason, which was not revealed. I guess you will
have to ask of the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Those are ways man has come up with to measure the amount
of space. For example we csn tell someone how much cubic
centimeters or cubic inches is inside a box. But we determine
what method of measurement we will use so the other person
understands. Unlike time, space has always existed. It does
not require the sun, moon, earth, stars and light, like ...[text shortened]... when the universe was created by God.
Space was not created because it always existed with God.

And again, in analogy you should consider that "...secs, mins, hours etc. are ways man has come up to measure the amount of time. For example we can tell someone how many hours a day has or how many days has a year. And we determine what method of measurement we will use so the other person understands. Unlike space, time always exised. It does not require spatial points of reference like space does. So, no, time is not a measurment, but can be measured. Space only began when the universe was created by God. Time was not created because it always existed with God, for in fact the Word emerged at a given time, In The Beginning, before the creation of the universe and thus before the creation of the space in which the universe is contained."...

Oh well these variations are to me mumbo-jumbo ad infinitum and pure philosophical nonsense, because amongst else the dogma prevails blindly and the concept of the SpaceTime is not considered, to say the least😵

Originally posted by RJHinds
Unlike time, space has always existed. It does
not require the sun, moon, earth, stars and light, like time does.

Time does not require the sun, moon, earth, stars and light either.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Space can be measured but is not a measurement.
Time is a measurement broken down into years, months,
weeks, days, hours, minutes, and seconds.

“...Space can be measured but is not a measurement. ...”

that is a logical self-contradiction. How can something be “measured” but that measuring of something not be taking a “ measurement”?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/measurement
“...meas·ure·ment
n.
1. The act of measuring or the process of being measured.
2. A system of measuring: measurement in miles.
3. The dimension, quantity, or capacity determined by measuring: the measurements of a room....”

If I measure a distance with a ruler and say it is 50 mm plus or minus one mm then in what way have I not made a measurement of 50 mm plus or minus one mm?

Originally posted by black beetle
And again, in analogy you should consider that "...secs, mins, hours etc. are ways man has come up to measure the amount of time. For example we can tell someone how many hours a day has or how many days has a year. And we determine what method of measurement we will use so the other person understands. Unlike space, time always exised. It does not requ ...[text shortened]... dogma prevails blindly and the concept of the SpaceTime is not considered, to say the least😵

Apparently you did not review the lecture by Stephen Hawking
on the beginning of time that I posted a link to earlier on this
thread or do not understand deep scientific thinking. Hawking
indicates in his lecture that the idea that the universe and time
had a beginning is now taken for granted by all physicist. But
I do see how space and time can be confusing to many when
dealing with the idea of a created universe that had a beginning.
I had already explained how time is accepted by physicist as a
measurement, even though man has determined the units of
division, in an earlier post. Time requires light and the relative
movement of at least the earth and moon with the Sun to have
any meaning to us. Space, however, is needed before God could
create the earth, sun, moon, stars, etc. Space does not need
these heavenly bodies to exist for it to exist. But space is infinite
and there would be no way to measure any of it without the
heavenly bodies as a reference point. We can not measure all
of space it is infinite. We can only measure that part of space
from one reference point to another. I know this may be
difficult to understand, so don't worry about it.

Originally posted by RJHinds
...... or do not understand deep scientific thinking.

That. Coming from you, is hilarious.

Hawking indicates in his lecture that the idea that the universe and time
had a beginning is now taken for granted by all physicist.
If he did, which I doubt, he was wrong.

Time requires light and the relative
movement of at least the earth and moon with the Sun to have
any meaning to us.
Are you saying that when you hide under your blankets and listen to your watch ticking you cant tell time because you cant see any light or see the earth, moon or sun?

But space is infinite and there would be no way to measure any of it without the
heavenly bodies as a reference point. We can not measure all of space it is infinite.
If space was infinite, then how could it have been a mere few centimeters across around the time of the big bang? At what point in time did it go from finite to infinite? How fast did it expand to achieve this transition?

I know this may be difficult to understand, so don't worry about it.
I am very worried about it because it violates some of the fundamental rules of group theory. As a mathematician, that is downright scary!

Originally posted by josephw
But in the beginning there was only one heaven.

Two more "heavens"were subsequently made as a result of the rebellion started by Satan.

But I wanted to know how you understood that space wasn't created.

Not to quibble, but the Hebrew e-shmim is typically rendered as "the heavens," rendering the transliterated first verse thusly:

b-ra***** bra aleim ath e-shmim u-ath e-artz
or
In-beginning he-created Elohim the-heavens and the-earth

NOTE: The asterisked word ends with what is apparently a filtered word herein these parts.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Time does not require the sun, moon, earth, stars and light either.

Time requires matter to exist. Time simply measures from point A to point B much like measuring height and width. To have a hieght and width, one must have matter to exist.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The heavens and the earth is what God created and put in
the empty space. No the space was not created. Like I said,
it always existed with God, according to the Holy Spirit.

I asked for Biblical support of the notion that space was not created. Your reference to the Holy Spirit is IMO, inadequate. Your answer also suggests a belief that time was not created. Given you are a theist, these are rather basic theological positions that IMO need a foundation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That. Coming from you, is hilarious.

[b]Hawking indicates in his lecture that the idea that the universe and time
had a beginning is now taken for granted by all physicist.
If he did, which I doubt, he was wrong.

Time requires light and the relative
movement of at least the earth and moon with the Sun to have
any meaning to us.
Are y ...[text shortened]... tes some of the fundamental rules of group theory. As a mathematician, that is downright scary![/b]

What you are really scared of is the fact that God began time
by creating the Heavens and the earth and at the end you
will have to answer to God for all you have done.