1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    02 Jul '07 19:19
    He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?

    It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly squat any of us can do about it. It's enough to make you feel fatalistic about it all. Good job that little ol' idea that we don't have to walk the path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
  2. Joined
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    02 Jul '07 19:20
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?

    It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly s ...[text shortened]... path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
    i agree, everyone should just give up and let what happens happen cuz we're all doomed in the eyes of a determinist
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    02 Jul '07 19:31
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?

    It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly s ...[text shortened]... path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
    Are you fated to repeatedly start free will threads?? 😞
  4. Standard memberNemesio
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    02 Jul '07 21:49
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?

    It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly s ...[text shortened]... path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
    Perhaps instead of these hyperbolic scenarios you can just provide an
    argument that demonstrates how a deterministic universe obviates
    free will.

    Nemesio
  5. Standard memberagryson
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    02 Jul '07 22:41
    Either it is, and you may as well go along for the ride and see what happens, or it isn't and you better make the most of it while you can. win win, I do believe it's deterministic, but that doesn't make me a dreary fatalist. It's like a movie, the script is already written but you can still enjoy the film, and should really try to get into the spirit of the big game.
  6. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Jul '07 00:04
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    i agree, everyone should just give up and let what happens happen cuz we're all doomed in the eyes of a determinist
    No; we might be determined to be ultimately happy.
  7. Cape Town
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    03 Jul '07 07:08
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?

    It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly s ...[text shortened]... path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
    So having been proved wrong time and again in every thread on free will you come up with this? Not even an argument, just a vague implication that if you don't believe in your particular, rather vague version of free will then Hitler was just unlucky?
    And how does an idea being in billions of humans (I think you should consult the Chinese before making such broad claims), change the facts of whether or not Hitler was just unlucky?

    And by the way, I wish I was born as Bill Gates.

    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?
    No, its a bleak universe if you are a closet determinist but lack the intelligence to understand determinism.
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    03 Jul '07 07:46
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
    Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?

    It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly s ...[text shortened]... path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
    Why do you continue to make new and boring threads about the same tired and poorly reasoned notion? Are you hoping that either those of us that have demonstrated your flawed argument might not see this thread, or that they might suddenly come round to your way of thinking after a continuous flogging of the proverbial dead horse?
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Jul '07 07:59
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    i agree, everyone should just give up and let what happens happen cuz we're all doomed in the eyes of a determinist
    No we are not neccessarily all doomed , maybe just some of us . If the human race is doomed then it won't be any choices we made that will cause it ,it will be because that was our destiny. Then again , we might not be doomed at all. Whatever the case it's gonna happen whatever we do.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Jul '07 08:00
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Are you fated to repeatedly start free will threads?? 😞
    Maybe. The way my mind works is that I like to try and get to the bottom of something rather than move on to the next thing. You could say that was fate , but I don't believe in fate.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Jul '07 08:03
    Originally posted by agryson
    Either it is, and you may as well go along for the ride and see what happens, or it isn't and you better make the most of it while you can. win win, I do believe it's deterministic, but that doesn't make me a dreary fatalist. It's like a movie, the script is already written but you can still enjoy the film, and should really try to get into the spirit of the big game.
    It's like a movie, the script is already written but you can still enjoy the film


    ..........but often the film is naff. Hitler had a starring role for a while but it's not one I would have wanted. As for the extras in Auchwitz?
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Jul '07 08:06
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Why do you continue to make new and boring threads about the same tired and poorly reasoned notion? Are you hoping that either those of us that have demonstrated your flawed argument might not see this thread, or that they might suddenly come round to your way of thinking after a continuous flogging of the proverbial dead horse?
    Why? I'm interested in your response to this issue. Aren't you mightily relieved you weren't born hitler? Don't you feel sorry for him? Poor chap , he was destined to shoot himself before he came out of the womb!

    What I'm interested in is how close you guys can live with the uncomfortable truths that determinism presents. I've got this silly idea that any philosophy that you can't live by is a dead philosophy and ultimately a bit naff.
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Jul '07 08:09
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So having been proved wrong time and again in every thread on free will you come up with this? Not even an argument, just a vague implication that if you don't believe in your particular, rather vague version of free will then Hitler was just unlucky?
    And how does an idea being in billions of humans (I think you should consult the Chinese before making s ...[text shortened]... universe if you are a closet determinist but lack the intelligence to understand determinism.
    Do you think Hitler was unlucky? You haven't said. Infact , nobody really has ....and that's what's interesting about this. Look closely at the responses and notice how there is a general skirting of the issue I am raising.

    Do you think Hitler was unlucky? I mean poor guy , he never had a chance!
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    03 Jul '07 08:101 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If the human race is doomed then it won't be any choices we made that will cause it ,it will be because that was our destiny.
    Again: if we are doomed, it is because we are destined to make bad choices.

    This is also true under your omniscient-god model. The only difference is that you believe "choice" implies we could have done something different in identical circumstances. Unfortunately you haven't been able to present a coherent model for such a choice.

    My current understanding of your view is something like this: god sprinkles magic god-dust on everything and libertarian freedom magically appears.

    This is child's thinking.

    Numerous people have presented, in your various identical threads, an account of free will that is compatible with determinism. It allows us to say that even though Hitler (or whoever) could not have been different, or chosen differently, he still made choice for which he was morally accountable.

    We are all still waiting for a reasoned argument why free will has to be libertarian free will. This isn't it.

    Try again, preferably in this thread rather than starting yet another.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Jul '07 08:12
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So having been proved wrong time and again in every thread on free will you come up with this? Not even an argument, just a vague implication that if you don't believe in your particular, rather vague version of free will then Hitler was just unlucky?
    And how does an idea being in billions of humans (I think you should consult the Chinese before making s ...[text shortened]... universe if you are a closet determinist but lack the intelligence to understand determinism.
    No, its a bleak universe if you are a closet determinist but lack the intelligence to understand determinism. WHITEY


    On the contrary , the universe only becomes bearable for the determinist because they are infact closet believers in free will and true personal responsibility. Many determinists understand determinism only intellectually but don't really live by it or think through it's actual implications. Otherwise they would be fatalists.
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