Originally posted by dottewell Again: if we are doomed, it is because we are destined to make bad choices.
This is also true under your omniscient-god model. The only difference is that you believe "choice" implies we could have done something different in identical circumstances. Unfortunately you haven't been able to present a coherent model for such a choice.
My current under ...[text shortened]... . This isn't it.
Try again, preferably in this thread rather than starting yet another.
Ah , the best form of defence is attack eh? Yet another compatabilist who won't wrestle with this issue.
I ask again, do you think hitler was unlucky? Do you feel sorry for him?
Originally posted by knightmeister Maybe. The way my mind works is that I like to try and get to the bottom of something rather than move on to the next thing. You could say that was fate , but I don't believe in fate.
The first post in this thread doesn't look like it was written by someone who is trying to get to the bottom of something. It looks like someone who is trying to use the spectre of Hitler to make anyone who might be thinking of becoming a determinist get frightened and come over to your way of thinking. Rather like the whole 'fire and brimstone' concept and for the same reasons. Christianity doesn't need to be logical, all you need to do is convince those poor young children that if they don't believe they are destined to burn in hell.
I will admit that I have continued the discussion with you, because I believed you to be interested but this thread made me have my doubts.
Originally posted by dottewell Again: if we are doomed, it is because we are destined to make bad choices.
This is also true under your omniscient-god model. The only difference is that you believe "choice" implies we could have done something different in identical circumstances. Unfortunately you haven't been able to present a coherent model for such a choice.
My current under ...[text shortened]... . This isn't it.
Try again, preferably in this thread rather than starting yet another.
Numerous people have presented, in your various identical threads, an account of free will that is compatible with determinism. It allows us to say that even though Hitler (or whoever) could not have been different, or chosen differently, he still made choice for which he was morally accountable. DOTTY
And how does it allow you to do this? Logically you should feel sorry for the poor chap. He was destined before he got out of the womb to kill himself and others and there was nothing he could have done about it. That's sad , very sad. I see no grounds for holding him morally accountable , it would be more logical to hold the cosmos accountable for creating the circumstances whereby a human being is born to commit heinous crimes with absolutely no chance of doing anything else. Hitler is but a pawn in the game of chess called the cosmos.
Originally posted by dottewell Again: if we are doomed, it is because we are destined to make bad choices.
This is also true under your omniscient-god model. The only difference is that you believe "choice" implies we could have done something different in identical circumstances. Unfortunately you haven't been able to present a coherent model for such a choice.
My current under ...[text shortened]... . This isn't it.
Try again, preferably in this thread rather than starting yet another.
This is also true under your omniscient-god model.DOTTY
And that's where you are wrong. If God just created the universe and left it at that then you would be right. Things would just unfold deterministically and Hitler would be destined to do what he did. However , God didn't just leave it there , he intervened and gave us a way out. I'm sure you can work out who that way out is.
Originally posted by twhitehead The first post in this thread doesn't look like it was written by someone who is trying to get to the bottom of something. It looks like someone who is trying to use the spectre of Hitler to make anyone who might be thinking of becoming a determinist get frightened and come over to your way of thinking. Rather like the whole 'fire and brimstone' concept a ...[text shortened]... n with you, because I believed you to be interested but this thread made me have my doubts.
It looks like someone who is trying to use the spectre of Hitler to make anyone who might be thinking of becoming a determinist get frightened and come over to your way of thinking.WHITEY
I'm sorry if you hear it like that. I think this may have something more to do with your own perceptions and experiences of religion.
Now , have a re-think. What this question does is bring forward the uncomfortable implications of determinism. It forces people to really think about wjhat they say they believe in their intellect and how that translates to the real world. Logicaly you should feel a lot of sympathy for hitler and his victims. It's desperately sad. A young innocent baby , held in the arms of his mother , fated to kill millions and self destruct. It's not a nice picture of humanity is it , but this is what determinism is. If you can't face it don't believe it.
Originally posted by twhitehead The first post in this thread doesn't look like it was written by someone who is trying to get to the bottom of something. It looks like someone who is trying to use the spectre of Hitler to make anyone who might be thinking of becoming a determinist get frightened and come over to your way of thinking. Rather like the whole 'fire and brimstone' concept a n with you, because I believed you to be interested but this thread made me have my doubts.
I will admit that I have continued the discussion with you, because I believed you to be interested but this thread made me have my doubts. WHITEY
I am VERY interested. Don't you get it? This is the real hub of the issue. Not all that philosobabble and intellectualising that goes on most of the time. Real hard questions that make you sit up and think. Do you really , really think that I am trying to batter anyone into christianity? As if I could (or wanted to).
I'm fascinated by the discomfort this issue seesm to have raised and yet all I am doing is following determinism through to it's logical conclusions. And look , everyone is getting twitchy!
Originally posted by knightmeister Why? I'm interested in your response to this issue. Aren't you mightily relieved you weren't born hitler? Don't you feel sorry for him? Poor chap , he was destined to shoot himself before he came out of the womb!
What I'm interested in is how close you guys can live with the uncomfortable truths that determinism presents. I've got this silly idea ...[text shortened]... hat any philosophy that you can't live by is a dead philosophy and ultimately a bit naff.
Determinism is only a problem if you believe in an omniscient God. The rest of us needn't worry about it.
Originally posted by knightmeister God didn't just leave it there , he intervened and gave us a way out. I'm sure you can work out who that way out is.
Don't be so stupid.
You can't have omniscience and anything he doesn't already know will happen. It's called logic. Read up on it before embarking on your captain stupid campaigns.
Originally posted by knightmeister I'm fascinated by the discomfort this issue seems to have raised and yet all I am doing is following determinism through to it's logical conclusions. And look , everyone is getting twitchy!
Who seems discomforted? I think most people are just getting tired of you posting the same thing over and over even when it has been refuted in other threads. For example how does this thread differ from you virginia tech thread? Were people not discomforted enough for you in that one?
You are also yet to show that what you claim are 'logical conclusions' are actually so despite repeatedly being asked to do so.
Originally posted by scottishinnz Don't be so stupid.
You can't have omniscience and anything he doesn't already know will happen. It's called logic. Read up on it before embarking on your captain stupid campaigns.
You know hitler's future. Does that logically prove that his actions were determined? Show me how captain sensible!
Originally posted by twhitehead Who seems discomforted? I think most people are just getting tired of you posting the same thing over and over even when it has been refuted in other threads. For example how does this thread differ from you virginia tech thread? Were people not discomforted enough for you in that one?
You are also yet to show that what you claim are 'logical conclusions' are actually so despite repeatedly being asked to do so.
It would be so nice if one of you answered the questions
Do you feel relieved that you weren't born hitler? Do you think hitler was unlucky? Do you sorry for the poor chap that his destiny was so rotten?
Go on...answer the question. There's a prize for the first of you that can actually do it! You could be the first one whitey!
Originally posted by knightmeister Do you feel relieved that you weren't born hitler?
Not really. There are so many less lucky people out there, I would consider Hitler to be one of the lucky few. (the life expectancy in Zambia is below 40).
Do you think hitler was unlucky? No.
Do you sorry for the poor chap that his destiny was so rotten? As I said, his destiny wasn't that bad. Wouldn't you like to run a country for a bit too?
Go on...answer the question. There's a prize for the first of you that can actually do it! You could be the first one whitey! I'm waiting for my prize.
Originally posted by knightmeister He had no choice......he could only have ever been what he was. Anyone else feel sorry for him? I'm glad I wasn't born him. Phew! Lucky escape eh? Poor stalin too eh? Not to mention the victims of these guys.
Bleak universe if you are a determinist isn't it?
It could all happen again . And if the cosmos is going in that direction there's diddly s ...[text shortened]... path of determinism is still there in billions of humans. Free will just won't go away.
Hitler was a coward ...i feel sorry for the millions he had killed!!!
poor old hitler
03 Jul '07 08:14
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