1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    23 May '06 16:12
    Originally posted by 7ate9
    http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-5810213,00.html

    i was hanging around with a pregnant mother a while ago, and then after she had the baby she ended up flipping out a lot. a lot of people thought something like this would eventuate, but luckily it never did.

    i know it is common for mothers to suffer depression after giving birth. does anyone have any thoughts on this topic?
    Eve's fault.
  2. London
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    23 May '06 16:14
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Eve's fault.
    Adam's fault too.
  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    23 May '06 16:351 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Adam's fault too.
    Why? Eve sinned first and brought sin into the world. Adam only sinned in a world that Eve had already tainted by her sinful act. Even if Adam had refused to eat the fruit, women would still have labor pains thanks to Eve.
  4. London
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    23 May '06 16:47
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Why? Eve sinned first and brought sin into the world. Adam only sinned in a world that Eve had already tainted by her sinful act. Even if Adam had refused to eat the fruit, women would still have labor pains thanks to Eve.
    Not quite. Adam was right there when Eve sinned. It was his job to protect the Garden of Eden against the intruder; the serpent wouldn't have gotten to Eve if Adam had not been derelict in his duty. Standing by while Eve sinned made Adam an accomplice in her sin - actually taking the fruit himself was a fait accompli.
  5. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    23 May '06 16:491 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Not quite. Adam was right there when Eve sinned. It was his job to protect the Garden of Eden against the intruder; the serpent wouldn't have gotten to Eve if Adam had not been derelict in his duty. Standing by while Eve sinned made Adam an accomplice in her sin - actually taking the fruit himself was a fait accompli.
    LMAO. You just make this crap up as you go along.

    If Eden was perfect, why in the world would Adam think he had a duty to act as a sentry against evil serpents?

    If there was in fact such a need, then evil must have already existed in the world and neither Adam nor Eve is responsible for introducing it.
  6. London
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    23 May '06 16:54
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    LMAO. You just make this crap up as you go along.

    If Eden was perfect, why in the world would Adam think he had a duty to act as a sentry against evil serpents?
    Because that's what God told him to do. Now, he wasn't explicitly told that the threat would be a serpent but, once it appeared, it was unmistakable.

    And, no, I'm not making this up. It's a more developed version of Bp. Irenaeus's exegesis of Genesis - it's also a not-uncommon view held by modern exegetes.
  7. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    23 May '06 16:551 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Because that's what God told him to do.
    So God acknowledged before the eating of the fruit that evil existed in the world, that Eden wasn't perfect?

    Where is this found in the Bible?
  8. London
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    23 May '06 16:591 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    So God acknowledged before the eating of the fruit that evil existed in the world, that Eden wasn't perfect?

    Where is this found in the Bible?
    a. The Garden of Eden isn't the "world".
    b. The world isn't the cosmos.
    c. Of course evil existed in the cosmos prior to the eating of the fruit - Lucifer, anyone?

    EDIT: Genesis 2-3
  9. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    23 May '06 17:08
    Originally posted by lucifershammer

    c. Of course evil existed in the cosmos prior to the eating of the fruit - Lucifer, anyone?
    Then why do Adam and Eve get the bad rap?

    If evil existed in the cosmos, and if it was possible for man to choose to do evil, and if man was designed to live forever, then it was logically impossible from the outset for man to never sin. The fact that man sins now is not contingent on Eve's sin, but rather on God's design of the cosmos - under the design, man sinning is inevitable.
  10. London
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    23 May '06 21:51
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Then why do Adam and Eve get the bad rap?

    If evil existed in the cosmos, and if it was possible for man to choose to do evil, and if man was designed to live forever, then it was logically impossible from the outset for man to never sin. The fact that man sins now is not contingent on Eve's sin, but rather on God's design of the cosmos - under the design, man sinning is inevitable.
    Eh? How is man's sinning inevitable?
  11. Donationkirksey957
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    23 May '06 22:31
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Eh? How is man's sinning inevitable?
    Look at the record.
  12. London
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    23 May '06 22:32
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Look at the record.
    That doesn't make it inevitable.
  13. Donationkirksey957
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    23 May '06 22:41
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    That doesn't make it inevitable.
    You are correct if you include infants and children who die before an age of "accountability." However, if I follow you correctly, it may mean that someone may come along that Jesus would not have had to die for.
  14. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    24 May '06 05:463 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Eh? How is man's sinning inevitable?
    I just explained it.

    It is possible for him to choose evil, which is to say, the probability that he sins at each opportunity to do so is greater than 0. (If the probability were not greater than 0, then sinning would be impossible, to which Adam is a counterexample.)
    He has an infinite number of opportunities to sin.
    Therefore, he must eventually sin.

    This is a very elementary deduction.
  15. London
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    24 May '06 08:42
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I just explained it.

    It is possible for him to choose evil, which is to say, the probability that he sins at each opportunity to do so is greater than 0. (If the probability were not greater than 0, then sinning would be impossible, to which Adam is a counterexample.)
    He has an infinite number of opportunities to sin.
    Therefore, he must eventually sin.

    This is a very elementary deduction.
    Except that laws of probability do not apply to matters of choice. He can very well choose not to sin for every single opportunity. Laws of probability, by definition, apply to random events - matters of choice are, by definition, not random.
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