sonship has brandished the “There are no atheists in foxholes” adage frequently, often as a go-to debating point when he found my lack of belief an affront. Sometimes he’d claim that I really wasn't an atheist but that I just claimed to not be a believer because I was "angry" at Jesus for making me accountable for my "wickedness".
Having said that, I think there are atheists who become theists in foxholes. However, during the height of COVID almost two years ago, during what may be described as a dark night of the soul, I proved to my own satisfaction that I am an atheist, even when in a proverbial foxhole.
I had often wondered over the last 15-20 years, if I ever found myself between a rock and a hard place, whether I would start praying in the way I used to. Well, the sincerity and reality of my post-Christian beliefs were put to the test when I sat alone and sleepless in the dark, in a hospital room coming to terms with the fact that the close relative I was watching over was possibly going to die.
And yet I did not pray to the deity I used to believe in. So, there ARE atheists in foxholes. I have no idea how many, but the conventional wisdom that there are none is not true. Have any of the agnostics or atheists on this forum ever had their lack [or loss] of belief tested?
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@fmf saidThe obvious difference is the atheist in the foxhole has *his life* in jeopardy. You did not. One of your relative’s lives was in jeopardy - yours wasn’t.
sonship has brandished the “There are no atheists in foxholes” adage frequently, often as a go-to debating point when he found my lack of belief an affront. Sometimes he’d claim that I really wasn't an atheist but that I just claimed to not be a believer because I was "angry" at Jesus for making me accountable for my "wickedness".
Having said that, I think there are atheists ...[text shortened]... Have any of the agnostics or atheists on this forum ever had their lack [or loss] of belief tested?
It doesn’t matter how close you are to your relative, it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.
And I hope your relative is Ok.
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@fmf saidNo way. Try as you might - to equate you on the verge of losing your own life to you watching a close relative on the verge of losing his/her life is a false comparison by a country mile.
I went through a feeling of jeopardy that was worse than the thought of me losing my own life.
Let’s see if you pray when you’re on the verge of losing your own life (when you’re in the foxhole.) That’s the only real and legitimate comparison.
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@fmf saidStop being so melodramatic. The fate of the world doesn’t hinge on whether you say a prayer
What a momentous thing ~ what a game-changer ~ it would have been, in light of all the views I have espoused and propagated sincerely here on this forum over the last decade or so, if I had prayed that night.
@pb1022 saidMaybe your own life experience, such as it is, makes you sincerely believe that what I said about myself is in any way false.
No way. Try as you might - to equate you on the verge of losing your own life to you watching a close relative on the verge of losing his/her life is a false comparison by a country mile.
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@fmf saidNo one - and I mean no one - when their very own life is in jeopardy and on the verge of being lost reacts the same way and has the same feelings as to when a close relative’s life is about to be lost.
Maybe your own life experience, such as it is, makes you sincerely believe that what I said about myself is in any way false.
You know it, and I know it.
Stop being ridiculous.
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@fmf saidRight.
Whoosh
This thread is not about "the fate of the world".
But you’d hardly know it from this post of yours, navel gazer:
<<What a momentous thing ~ what a game-changer ~ it would have been, in light of all the views I have espoused and propagated sincerely here on this forum over the last decade or so, if I had prayed that night.>>
@pb1022 saidThat post was not about "the fate of the world" either. It would have been very interesting, to put it mildly, to confess to a restoration of my belief in Jesus happening here and then perhaps an ensuing reassembling that faith in public in front of a group of people that includes some pretty ugly Christians. It would have been quite a turnaround. The post you quoted was about past debates in this community, not "the fate of the world".
But you’d hardly know it from this post of yours, navel gazer:
<<What a momentous thing ~ what a game-changer ~ it would have been, in light of all the views I have espoused and propagated sincerely here on this forum over the last decade or so, if I had prayed that night.>>
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@fmf saidYou think the world revolves around you, don’t you? Quite an ego you have.
That post was not about "the fate of the world" either. It would have been very interesting, to put it mildly, to confess to a restoration of my belief in Jesus happening here and then perhaps an ensuing reassembling that faith in public in front of a group of people that includes some pretty ugly Christians. It would have been quite a turnaround. The post you quoted was about past debates in this community, not "the fate of the world".
@pb1022 saidI am not being dishonest at all. I have shared some personal information with you, that's all. I have not claimed the prospect of my death and that of my close relative's death have, had, or would have the SAME effect on me.
You’re being blatantly dishonest if you’re claiming the impending death of a relative and *your* impending death have the same effect on you.
Indeed, what I have revealed to you is that I went through a feeling of jeopardy that was worse than the thought of me losing my own life.
If no experience in your life has enabled you to accept this, fair enough, but I don't think accusing me of being "dishonest" is an appropriate reaction.