1. Joined
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    31 Jan '06 20:43
    forgive me if this is already a thread, but i haven't checked. I am wishing to know (mainly from christian perspectives, but others are very welcome), why Jesus prayed.

    Jesus was god in human form (according to my RE teacher, so if i'm wrong, this thread is pointless). So why did he pray to God? As god would have been him, therefore he would have been praying to himself. What are your views?
  2. Joined
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    31 Jan '06 21:02
    As God, Christ's suffering had infinite value. Thus, He did not need to endure the agonies of the Passion in order to satisfy justice and redeem mankind's offenses against God. Any slight pain or humiliation He suffered would have been sufficient. I believe, even the sacrifice of taking on human nature would have been enough. Instead, He chose to live for many years among men and suffer horrible crucifixion in order to reveal many truths which we would otherwise discern with difficulty. One thing He made manifest was the proper relationship between God and man, and the role of prayer in that relationship. He did not need to pray, but He came to give us an example of holiness, and prayer is an important part of piety.
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    31 Jan '06 22:26
    Originally posted by i am scientists
    forgive me if this is already a thread, but i haven't checked. I am wishing to know (mainly from christian perspectives, but others are very welcome), why Jesus prayed.

    Jesus was god in human form (according to my RE teacher, so if i'm wrong, this thread is pointless). So why did he pray to God? As god would have been him, therefore he would have been praying to himself. What are your views?
    This is yet another "trinity" question. The best way I can explain it is that you are made in the image of God. You to are a triune being but yet one person. You are body, soul, and spirit. You know this is true but yet you cannot explain it. How then can we explain the holy trinity? Does your body ever talk to you? Do you ever talk to yourself? This is the best way I can describe what is occuring when Jesus prays to the father.
  4. Cape Town
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    01 Feb '06 13:54
    Originally posted by Raindear
    As God, Christ's suffering had infinite value.
    Do not play lightly with infinity. Surely as God is capable of infinite suffering then the suffering of Jesus was infinitely negligible to him?

    My view has always been that the suffering of Jesus can never be justly compared to the suffering of another human being as:
    1. Jesus knew he would rise again and therefore had no fear of death.
    2. He knew what was going to happen and that he was not going to change it.
  5. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    01 Feb '06 14:10
    Originally posted by Raindear
    As God, Christ's suffering had infinite value. Thus, He did not need to endure the agonies of the Passion in order to satisfy justice and redeem mankind's offenses against God. Any slight pain or humiliation He suffered would have been sufficient. I believe, even the sacrifice of taking on human nature would have been enough. Instead, He chose to live f ...[text shortened]... pray, but He came to give us an example of holiness, and prayer is an important part of piety.
    Brilliant post. Well written. Kudos!
  6. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    01 Feb '06 14:11
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is yet another "trinity" question. The best way I can explain it is that you are made in the image of God. You to are a triune being but yet one person. You are body, soul, and spirit. You know this is true but yet you cannot explain it. How then can we explain the holy trinity? Does your body ever talk to you? Do you ever talk to yourself? This is the best way I can describe what is occuring when Jesus prays to the father.
    Why not use St.Patrick's device which helped him convert Ireland to Christianity, and find a shamrock somewhere near you?
  7. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    01 Feb '06 14:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Do not play lightly with infinity. Surely as God is capable of infinite suffering then the suffering of Jesus was infinitely negligible to him?

    My view has always been that the suffering of Jesus can never be justly compared to the suffering of another human being as:
    1. Jesus knew he would rise again and therefore had no fear of death.
    2. He knew what was going to happen and that he was not going to change it.
    Jesus was both God and Man. I am no expert, but I think that is rather important in understanding the Faith. Christ is in one sense humanity, and who among us does not fear death?

    But His suffering cannot be compared to any human suffering, in that I think you are correct. He suffered for us as both Man and God.

    The Gospels show us that Jesus knew something of what lay in store for Him, but do not His last words show that He had in no way forseen everything as you suggest?

    sjeg
  8. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    01 Feb '06 14:181 edit
    Windmill, and they say the Antipodes is a savage land filled with ignorant ex-convicts and morons!!

    And then you came along and destroyed that stereotype with your insightful wit. Well played, Sir!
  9. Cape Town
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    01 Feb '06 14:21
    Originally posted by sjeg
    Jesus was both God and Man. I am no expert, but I think that is rather important in understanding the Faith. Christ is in one sense humanity, and who among us does not fear death?
    Should true believers fear death, that does not make sense at all !
  10. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    01 Feb '06 14:30
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Should true believers fear death, that does not make sense at all !
    Certainly!

    I actually did some serious research on martyrdom and the persecution of Christians (mostly under the emperor Decius).

    Any true believer would always fear death, naturally. It's a change in state, and it can bring great suffering.

    I'd personally argue that a true believer would put one's faith in Christ, but not in order to obtain salvation, or the keys to the Kingdom, but that's just my view.

    Christ was human, but his suffering as discussed above, is incomprehensible to us. And even He had a moment of doubt. that's the way I understand it, anyway.
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    01 Feb '06 16:111 edit
    Should true believers fear death?
    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Apcryphon of James: "In truth I say to you, none of those who are afraid of death will be saved."
  12. Standard memberRemoved
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    01 Feb '06 23:21
    Originally posted by i am scientists
    forgive me if this is already a thread, but i haven't checked. I am wishing to know (mainly from christian perspectives, but others are very welcome), why Jesus prayed.

    Jesus was god in human form (according to my RE teacher, so if i'm wrong, this thread is pointless). So why did he pray to God? As god would have been him, therefore he would have been praying to himself. What are your views?
    Because the bible says Jesus is the Son of God and not God, there is no trinity in the bible and Jesus prayed for the Father to take away the crucifiction if at all possible. Of course the rest is history.
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    02 Feb '06 12:56
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Because the bible says Jesus is the Son of God and not God, there is no trinity in the bible and Jesus prayed for the Father to take away the crucifiction if at all possible. Of course the rest is history.
    You are correct in that the word trinity is not in the Bible. However, the Biblical implication that he is God is found in many places. I think the best place to see this is the first chapter of the gospel of John. It says that in the begining was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word WAS God. Then it goes on to say that Christ was God's Word incarnate. There is not getting around the implication here. God's word is merely an extension of himself. It is not a seperate entity but are one in the same.

    Also when Jesus was condemned to crucifixion, why was he condemned? Was it not for blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God. The Jewish leaders knew the implication here as well. Christ was making himself equal to God.
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    02 Feb '06 13:363 edits
    Originally posted by sjeg
    Certainly!

    I actually did some serious research on martyrdom and the persecution of Christians (mostly under the emperor Decius).

    Any true believer would always fear death, naturally. It's a change in state, and it can bring great suffering.

    I'd personally argue that a true believer would put one's faith in Christ, but not in order to obtain salvatio ehensible to us. And even He had a moment of doubt. that's the way I understand it, anyway.
    This brings to mind the suffering of Christ as he sweated great drops of blood before he was crucified. Was he sweating great drops of blood because he knew exactly every detail of what was going to happen to him or because he did not know? I propose that it was because he knew. As for myself, some of the worst suffering I have endured was not a result of enduring suffering but rather the anticipation of it. Usually 99.9% of the time the anticipation of suffering is always worse than the actual suffering. Conversly, when I am not anticipating suffering and endure suffering it does not seem nearly as bad as I had anticipated it to be.

    I think that Christ knew that he would be seperated from the Father for the first and final time. This was the ultimate hell for him. This can be seen as Christ said to the Father, "Why have you forsaken me?" He was thus anticipating his moment of doubt as he took on the sins of the world and not sweating great drops of blood beforehand because had been in a state of doubt. I say this in no way to down play his physical suffering that is unimaginable. Who else has died in such a horrific way. He was first almost whipped to death and then crucified until dead. I am sure Christ had this in mind as well and contributed to his torment beforehand.

    I think it is a misinterpretation to view those who have laid down their lives for Christ's sake in a state of fearful anticipation as having a lack of faith. I think it to be the exact opposite. It is faith in action that leads people to sacrifice their lives for their Lord no matter the emotional baggage attached. One of my favorite verses in the Bible are about Shadrack, Meshak, and Abendago in the book of Daniel. They to were about to lose their lives by being tossed into a hot furnace. They were being killed because they refused to bow to the Babylonian idols. Their response was God will save us....but if not...we will still refuse to bow to your idols. This could be interpreted as a lack of faith because they were unsure of God's response in the matter of obediece to him. However, they were in truth responding to God in faith by not bowing to the idols. After all, faith is merely doing what the word of God tells us to. I am sure they were scared as well.
  15. Standard memberZippy B
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    02 Feb '06 13:47
    Originally posted by whodey
    You are correct ...why was he condemned? Was it not for blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God. The Jewish leaders knew the implication here as well. Christ was making himself equal to God.
    If you know a passage where he claims before the Jewish leaders (or the Jewish people) to be the Son of God, please quote, It's my understanding that Jesus always claimed to be the 'Son of Man'.
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