02 Feb 06
3 edits
Originally posted by sjegThis brings to mind the suffering of Christ as he sweated great drops of blood before he was crucified. Was he sweating great drops of blood because he knew exactly every detail of what was going to happen to him or because he did not know? I propose that it was because he knew. As for myself, some of the worst suffering I have endured was not a result of enduring suffering but rather the anticipation of it. Usually 99.9% of the time the anticipation of suffering is always worse than the actual suffering. Conversly, when I am not anticipating suffering and endure suffering it does not seem nearly as bad as I had anticipated it to be.
Certainly!
I actually did some serious research on martyrdom and the persecution of Christians (mostly under the emperor Decius).
Any true believer would always fear death, naturally. It's a change in state, and it can bring great suffering.
I'd personally argue that a true believer would put one's faith in Christ, but not in order to obtain salvatio ehensible to us. And even He had a moment of doubt. that's the way I understand it, anyway.
I think that Christ knew that he would be seperated from the Father for the first and final time. This was the ultimate hell for him. This can be seen as Christ said to the Father, "Why have you forsaken me?" He was thus anticipating his moment of doubt as he took on the sins of the world and not sweating great drops of blood beforehand because had been in a state of doubt. I say this in no way to down play his physical suffering that is unimaginable. Who else has died in such a horrific way. He was first almost whipped to death and then crucified until dead. I am sure Christ had this in mind as well and contributed to his torment beforehand.
I think it is a misinterpretation to view those who have laid down their lives for Christ's sake in a state of fearful anticipation as having a lack of faith. I think it to be the exact opposite. It is faith in action that leads people to sacrifice their lives for their Lord no matter the emotional baggage attached. One of my favorite verses in the Bible are about Shadrack, Meshak, and Abendago in the book of Daniel. They to were about to lose their lives by being tossed into a hot furnace. They were being killed because they refused to bow to the Babylonian idols. Their response was God will save us....but if not...we will still refuse to bow to your idols. This could be interpreted as a lack of faith because they were unsure of God's response in the matter of obediece to him. However, they were in truth responding to God in faith by not bowing to the idols. After all, faith is merely doing what the word of God tells us to. I am sure they were scared as well.
02 Feb 06
Originally posted by whodeyIf you know a passage where he claims before the Jewish leaders (or the Jewish people) to be the Son of God, please quote, It's my understanding that Jesus always claimed to be the 'Son of Man'.
You are correct ...why was he condemned? Was it not for blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God. The Jewish leaders knew the implication here as well. Christ was making himself equal to God.
02 Feb 06
3 edits
To dread suffering is not a lack of faith or courage, as long as you keep the proper perspective. Spiritual "goods" like truth or justice are worth more than material "goods" like physical comfort or riches, and you should be willing to give up the latter for the former. Chesterton points out that true courage "means a strong desire to live taking the form of a readiness to die." The key is having a rich understanding of human life - the health and life of the soul are more important than the health and life of the body.
"Do not play lightly with infinity. Surely as God is capable of infinite suffering then the suffering of Jesus was infinitely negligible to him?"
I am not quite sure what you mean, but let me clarify my statement. God possesses every perfection infinitely, and we owe Him a debt we can never repay for creating us and offering us the opportunity to achieve eternal bliss. Thus, every deliberate offense against God is an outrage. No mere human suffering could satisfy justice because it would be finite reparation for offense against an infinite God. As God, Christ's suffering had infinite value, so when He became a man He could make fitting reparation. I do not mean that His suffering was not great suffering because He could suffer infinitely. Rather, I mean that anything He suffered had more value. Btw, this is really nice reflection: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19881019en.html
"If you know a passage where he claims before the Jewish leaders (or the Jewish people) to be the Son of God, please quote, It's my understanding that Jesus always claimed to be the 'Son of Man'."
This was a phrase used often by prophets (Daniel, for instance) to refer to the Messiah. It does not necessarily imply divinity, but implies more than humanity. However, Christ reveals His divinity quite clearly in a few places. (Matt 16:13-17) When He refers to Himself as Son of Man in Matt 26:64, He implies divinity by saying He will sit at the right hand of the Father.
02 Feb 06
Originally posted by Zippy BJesus refers to himself as the Son of God in John 9:35-37
If you know a passage where he claims before the Jewish leaders (or the Jewish people) to be the Son of God, please quote, It's my understanding that Jesus always claimed to be the 'Son of Man'.
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said to him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto them, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
The authors of the gospels also refer to him as such in Mark 1:1 and John 3:18. Satan refers to him as the Son of God in Matthew 4:3.
His disciples recognized him as such in Matthew 16:15
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
I can understand the confusion that often occurs when Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man. The two terms are often used interchangably as seen in Matthew 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jeus saith unto him, Thou hast said; nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, he hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses?
Here we see that they knew what his reference ment as being the Son of Man. He was either God in the flesh or he was guilty of blasphemy.
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03 Feb 06
Originally posted by whodeyJohn 1:1
You are correct in that the word trinity is not in the Bible. However, the Biblical implication that he is God is found in many places. I think the best place to see this is the first chapter of the gospel of John. It says that in the begining was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word WAS God. Then it goes on to say that Christ was God's Word inca ...[text shortened]... The Jewish leaders knew the implication here as well. Christ was making himself equal to God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)
1. It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated “Word” (some versions even write “Jesus Christ” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators’ decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.
to see the rest of this study go here....
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85
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03 Feb 06
Most "Trinitarians" believe God and Jesus Christ are co - equal.
But if this is true, then the bible becomes myth with all the contradictions.
Jesus was tempted 40 days and 40 nights while God cannot be tempted.
Jesus does not have all knowledge because only God knew when the "end" of all things will be.
Jesus was weary, God cannot be weary.
Jesus was a man, God is not a man.
The examples are many, these are just a few.
03 Feb 06
Originally posted by Zippy BWhat is your point? If you do not believe the text where Jesus claims to be the Son of God, why would you give credence to the text when Jesus claims to the Son of Man before the Jewish leaders? Also, what difference does it matter in your mind as to whether he refers himself to be the Son of Man compared to the Son of God?
If you know a passage where he claims before the Jewish leaders (or the Jewish people) to be the Son of God, please quote, It's my understanding that Jesus always claimed to be the 'Son of Man'.
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03 Feb 06
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Originally posted by whodeyYou are twisting words. Jesus is the first and divine Son of God. He is also called the Son of man. My point is He is the Son, not God. They are not co-equal nor one and the same.
What is your point? If you do not believe the text where Jesus claims to be the Son of God, why would you give credence to the text when Jesus claims to the Son of Man before the Jewish leaders? Also, what difference does it matter in your mind as to whether he refers himself to be the Son of Man compared to the Son of God?
To call Jesus God, demeans God the Father. It also negates Jesus suffering. He was a man and suffered for us as our atonement for sin. Do you think God died on the cross? If so, who raised God from the dead?
God cannot die. Jesus is LIKE God. He is the image of God Hebrews tells us. He has the same attributes, but like Joseph sits as Pharoahs right hand( Joseph was a "type of Christ" so Jesus is at God's right hand. As Joseph served Pharoah, Jesus serves God the Father.
He was the first born, believers came after, etc. Jesus is the "captain" of our salvation. He obeyed God perfectly and without sin. He was the "sacrificial lamb."
To make Jesus God, demeans Jesus accomplishment. If He was God, I might say, did He really feel the pain? How can He be tempted in all points like I am, since God cannot be tempted? Why would Satan even waste his time?
Where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. That is why He is called the 2nd Adam.
03 Feb 06
Originally posted by checkbaiterI agree. Jesus is the wave and God is the ocean. The wave is one with the ocean and it’s like the ocean, but it’s not the ocean.
You are twisting words. Jesus is the first and divine Son of God. He is also called the Son of man. My point is He is the Son, not God. They are not co-equal nor one and the same.
To call Jesus God, demeans God the Father. It also negates Jesus suffering. He was a man and suffered for us as our atonement for sin. Do you think God died on the cross? If ...[text shortened]... te his time?
Where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. That is why He is called the 2nd Adam.
03 Feb 06
1 edit
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressAnother old description I like is:
I agree. Jesus is the wave and God is the ocean. The wave is one with the ocean and it’s like the ocean, but it’s not the ocean.
"Seeing Himself within Himself in a mirror, He appeared resembling Himself, ... He (the one that appeared) is indeed of equal age with the Light that is before him, but he is not equal to him in power."
Also, it may be useful to consider the concepts regarding God himself.
Wikipedia:
"Mainstream Orthodox Judaism teaches that God is neither matter nor spirit. They teach that God is the creator of both, but is himself neither. But if God is so different from his creation, how can there be any interaction between the Creator and the created? This question prompted early Kabbalists (Jewish mystics) to envision two aspects of God, (a) God himself, who in the end is unknowable, and (b) the revealed aspect of God who created the universe, preserves the universe, and interacts with mankind in a personal way. Kabbalists believe that these two aspects are not contradictory but complement one another, similar to a creation inside a persons mind."
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04 Feb 06
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Originally posted by The Chess ExpressJesus is more than a wave. He is the subject of the bible from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22:21. He is our Champion. He came not only to save us, but to reveal what God is like.
I agree. Jesus is the wave and God is the ocean. The wave is one with the ocean and it’s like the ocean, but it’s not the ocean.
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)
He "declared" or made God known. In the OT, God was blamed for good and evil. People did not fully understand evil spirits nor Satan. Jesus "exposed" Satan as being the Father of all evil. He also revealed God as all good and that in God there is no darkness at all.
I believe Satan will and has attacked God and His people where he could do the most damage....God's Word. His goal is to turn the bible into a myth. And for the most part he has done a good job. If he can get people, especially Christians, to doubt God's Goodness, God's power and the integrity of the scriptures he will have succeeded. But throughout all of history God has had a "remnant" of people to preserve and teach His Word. Someone once said, "If you want to know God, you have to know His Word." I believe this is true. But I do not mean a watered down version of the scriptures, but as they were originally written or "God breathed".
04 Feb 06
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterAs a supporter of the trinity I must point out a few things. Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. This implies a submissive role. I do not doubt this view. Jesus himself reinforced this teaching by saying things like I come to do the will of the Father and not my own. However, does a representation of submission imply inferiority? Jesus is also refered to as the Son of Man. Does this mean that he is inferiour to man? No, it does not. It simply means that he willfuly is in a submissive role to men. We see this example as Jesus was washing the feet of his disciples. At first his disciples were appalled by him wanting to do so but relented because they knew that he was greater than they. He then said something interesting to them. Jesus told them that if they did not let him do so that they could have no part of him. They had to relent to Christ's pursuit of submission towards them in order for Chirst to be in a position of authority and leadership over them.
Most "Trinitarians" believe God and Jesus Christ are co - equal.
But if this is true, then the bible becomes myth with all the contradictions.
Jesus was tempted 40 days and 40 nights while God cannot be tempted.
Jesus does not have all knowledge because only God knew when the "end" of all things will be.
Jesus was weary, God cannot be weary.
Jesus was a man, God is not a man.
The examples are many, these are just a few.
This leads me to the godly principle of submission that is taught in the scriptures. Jesus said that whoever wants to be greatest among you must first be his servant. The opposite is also true. Those who exalt themselves will be abased. You see, as Jesus served mankind and was submissive to the will of the Father he was gaining power. This can be seen in Hebrews 2:18 as it says, "For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." This can also be seen as Jesus laid down his life in submission to the Fathers will. In John 19:10 we see Pilate saying to Jesus that he had the power to crucify him. Then Jesus turned to him and said that he was given this power in order that Jesus might lay down his life in submission. Once Jesus had submitted his very life he then gained power over death, hell, and the grave not only for his sake but also for our sake. We to can gain power in similair fashion. This can be seen in James 4:7 as it says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he must flee from you."
You rightly point out the submissive element of Christ in relation to the Father but you ignore the elements of parity in doing so. In Matthew 11:25 Jesus says, "I praise the , O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes. Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal him." Notice that the Father reveals and Jesus 'wills to reveal'? This is parity. Also look at John 16:15 were Jesus says, "All things that the Father has are Mine!!!"
How could God come to earth and gain power for our sakes without abiding by the Godly principle of submission? How could God be submissive unless he chose to come in the form of a mortal man? How could he be in the form of mortal man and not have weaknesses and limitations that are similair to our own? Make no mistake about it, however, these weaknesses and limitations are self imposed. God lives by the same laws and principles that he asks us to live by. Otherwise he would be hypocritical in asking us to live in such a fashion.
If you want more evidence look at John 20:28 where his disciple Thomas refers to Jesus as his Lord and his God. Also in Revelation 5:13 we see Jesus being worshiped as well as the Father who sits upon his throne. Who else but God himself should be worshiped? Other instances where men attempted to worship angels in the Old Testament they were stopped and corrected. Only God is to be worshiped.
When you said that God cannot be tempted this is not scripturally true. Where do you get this from scripture? Look at Malachi 5:15 where it says, "And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered. Also look at Exodus 17:2 where the children of Israel tempt their creator as well.
I guess what troubles me the most about the nontrinitarian veiw can be seen in Romans 10:9 where it says that whoever confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart Christ was raised from the dead will be saved. When you confess Jesus as Lord you are saying not only that he is Lord in your life but that he is really Lord. After all, there is only one Lord God of all. This teaching that Jesus is not part of the trinity infringes upon the very nature of salvation in and of itself. This is what Islam, Judaism, and Jehova's Witnesses do as well. They strip Christ of his rightful place within the trinity and make him out to be either a mere mortal man or an angelic type of being.
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04 Feb 06
James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
(NKJ)
It is obvious that you haven't looked at the website.....all your comments are refuted and answered here...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
Also, we are none of the sects you mentioned....that is a common response from trinitarians....we are born again Christians and we believe Jesus is Lord, but not God.🙂
05 Feb 06
Originally posted by checkbaiterThank you for your proding me to look at the web site. It seems I learn something every day. I can't say that it changes my mind, however. The fact that Jesus was tempted was a direct result of him being incarnate or (as a man). Just as my above post said this incarnation was voluntary and temporary. He underwent temptation so that we could have the power to overcome temptation through him. When James said that God is never tempted by evil he was refering to the Son of God in the incarnate form. Now Christ is no longer in the incarnate form and now likewise cannot be tempted by evil. Remember that the author of James had written this after Jesus had ascended back to the Father. As for my other posts about God being tempted in the Old Testament, I can now see that God was not being tempted to do evil, rather, he was tempted to chastise them for their iniquity. The one topic I did not see your web site cover was my post about Revelation chapter 5. Why in your opionion is Christ worshiped if he is not God? Also, if Jesus is not part of the Trinity I assume you are prepared to say that Jesus was a creation of the Father. This, however, is not supported by the Bible.
James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
(NKJ)
It is obvious that you haven't looked at the website.....all your comments are refuted and answered here...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
Also, we are none of the sects you mentioned....that is ...[text shortened]... rom trinitarians....we are born again Christians and we believe Jesus is Lord, but not God.🙂
I must admit I had never heard of the Unitarian faith, however. You do realize this flies in the face of mainstream Christiandom. It seems that you can explain and debate away anything that you believe. Islam has many web sites doing this as well as many other religions that do not believe in the trinity. I like what Jesus asked Peter about his identity. He asked him who do you say that I am? He did not go around telling people who he was. He wanted it to be revealed to them spiritually. Without this revelation, you will never understand who he really was.
05 Feb 06
Originally posted by checkbaiterThis is true, it does not mean that Jesus wasn't God, isn't God, or
Most "Trinitarians" believe God and Jesus Christ are co - equal.
But if this is true, then the bible becomes myth with all the contradictions.
Jesus was tempted 40 days and 40 nights while God cannot be tempted.
Jesus does not have all knowledge because only God knew when the "end" of all things will be.
Jesus was weary, God cannot be weary.
Jesus was a man, God is not a man.
The examples are many, these are just a few.
will be forever God. It means that Jesus became a man, it means
that there is a man sitting at the right hand of God the Father, and
that while here Jesus did everything as a man, Jesus defeated the
true enemy of mankind, the devil and his angels as a man. He did
not do anything while here as God when he was walking with us. To
deny his divinity or his humanity is an error, simply seeing scripture
proving his humanity does not take away from Jesus divinity, just as
his humanity makes his divinity void.
Kelly