1. not of this world
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    28 Oct '06 13:29
    The pre-rapture theory has become quite popular today. However, I believe it to be quite undefendable from a biblical point of view. Anyone who'd like to defend it using his Bible? Would be curious to see how this would be possible...

    (Please only serious comments)
  2. Joined
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    28 Oct '06 17:372 edits
    Originally posted by louisXIV
    The pre-rapture theory has become quite popular today. However, I believe it to be quite undefendable from a biblical point of view. Anyone who'd like to defend it using his Bible? Would be curious to see how this would be possible...

    (Please only serious comments)
    It is a mixed bag because the Bible talks about Christ coming in many places throughout the Bible. It is often hard to distinguish which scripture is talking about the first coming or second coming. In fact, the Jewish people are still waiting for the first coming and sware up and down that the Old Testament does not mention a second coming. Although it does not specifically mention a second coming, it deos not rule it out either and is why only part of the prophesies have been fulfilled by the Messiah and not all the prophesies until he returns again. Who then is to say that he will not return three times? Prophesy has a way of jumping around in time and it is often hard if not impossible to get a time line for those prophesies as a result. As for me, I care little about how many times he comes. All that matters to me is that he is coming again at least one more time and he will take me with him when he comes. I think that is all that matters, no?
  3. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    28 Oct '06 18:26
    Originally posted by whodey
    It is a mixed bag because the Bible talks about Christ coming in many places throughout the Bible. It is often hard to distinguish which scripture is talking about the first coming or second coming. In fact, the Jewish people are still waiting for the first coming and sware up and down that the Old Testament does not mention a second coming. Although it do ...[text shortened]... one more time and he will take me with him when he comes. I think that is all that matters, no?
    If Christ is going to come and take the true believers away with him, I wish he'd hurry up and do it. Having to live with them in the meantime is simply dreadful.
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    28 Oct '06 18:371 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If Christ is going to come and take the true believers away with him, I wish he'd hurry up and do it. Having to live with them in the meantime is simply dreadful.
    I love you to rwingett. Then the world will become one big happy utopia no doubt. Perhaps you will enjoy fundamentalist Islam over fundamentalist Christianity?
  5. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    28 Oct '06 19:04
    Originally posted by whodey
    I love you to rwingett. Then the world will become one big happy utopia no doubt. Perhaps you will enjoy fundamentalist Islam over fundamentalist Christianity?
    I hold them in equal contempt. Religious fundamentalism, regardless of the specific creed, is a cancer upon humanity.
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    28 Oct '06 19:241 edit
    Originally posted by louisXIV
    The pre-rapture theory has become quite popular today. However, I believe it to be quite undefendable from a biblical point of view. Anyone who'd like to defend it using his Bible? Would be curious to see how this would be possible...

    (Please only serious comments)
    Pre, post, middle, who cares if it is true and if you are not ready when
    you die you'll go to hell. There are also people who believe the taking
    away will be the sinners not saved, verses those who are, as in the
    days of Noah those who were left behind were the few faithful on the
    planet.
    Kelly
  7. Joined
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    28 Oct '06 23:18
    I favor pre-Trib rapture:

    During the Tribulation God is dealing with the nation of Israel. He has turned His attention back to the nation of Israel so as to bring them to the place where they accept Jesus as the Messiah. Revelation 12:6 says they will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days. This starts when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (2 Thess 2:4). This takes place in the middle of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). In Revelation 4:1 it says, "come up hither," meaning the rapture of the church, and the Church is not mentioned again as attention switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.

    The wedding feast of Jesus and his Church is described in Revelation 19:7-8. My understanding is that by OT Jewish tradition the marriage supper took place before the marriage. When it was time for the wedding, the groom went to the bride's house, she came out to meet him and he took her to his (or his father’s) house for the marriage supper. After the marriage supper the bride and groom were then presented as man and wife.

    Jesus (Groom) comes down and calls His Church (Bride). Jesus and His Bride return to His Father's house (Heaven) where the marriage supper takes place while the tribulation takes place on earth. After that Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army (His Bride) mentioned in Rev 19:14. They reign over people who survived the Tribulation and those who are born over the next 1000 years.

    As Whodey & KellyJay point out, the important thing is to be ready whenever He calls you.
  8. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
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    29 Oct '06 02:38
    Originally posted by whodey
    I love you to rwingett. Then the world will become one big happy utopia no doubt. Perhaps you will enjoy fundamentalist Islam over fundamentalist Christianity?
    lol
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    29 Oct '06 03:04
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I hold them in equal contempt. Religious fundamentalism, regardless of the specific creed, is a cancer upon humanity.
    What about religious fundamentalism in general do you have a problem with?
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    29 Oct '06 03:24
    Originally posted by whodey
    What about religious fundamentalism in general do you have a problem with?
    Try this article: http://www.bidstrup.com/religion.htm

    I recognize you and a bunch of others here in that site.
  11. Joined
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    29 Oct '06 04:50
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Try this article: http://www.bidstrup.com/religion.htm

    I recognize you and a bunch of others here in that site.
    Why don't you join me in my new thread on fundamentalism?
  12. not of this world
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    30 Oct '06 20:39
    Originally posted by masscat
    I favor pre-Trib rapture:

    During the Tribulation God is dealing with the nation of Israel. He has turned His attention back to the nation of Israel so as to bring them to the place where they accept Jesus as the Messiah. Revelation 12:6 says they will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days. This starts when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares ...[text shortened]...

    As Whodey & KellyJay point out, the important thing is to be ready whenever He calls you.
    Originally posted by masscat
    [b]I favor pre-Trib rapture:

    So how do you defend pre-rapture? Which passages of scripture do you use? In my opinion, it's impossible to defend this point of view, how popular it might be today...
  13. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 00:36
    Originally posted by louisXIV
    Originally posted by masscat
    [b]I favor pre-Trib rapture:

    So how do you defend pre-rapture? Which passages of scripture do you use? In my opinion, it's impossible to defend this point of view, how popular it might be today...
    Agreed there is not a Scripture that specifically states the rapture happens before the Trib. However, I believe there is a distinction between God’s purpose for the Church and the nation of Israel. During the Tribulation the emphasis is on the Jewish people and events are designed to get them to accept Jesus as their Messiah. In Rev. 7:4 they are the ones evangelizing the world. The first chapters of Rev. are written to the Church and chapters 4 & 5 describe what is going on in heaven.

    Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection and is a description of the second coming of Christ. The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at this time. The armies are the redeemed saints of all ages.

    When speaking of the return of Jesus, the Bible speaks of two days: one known & one we can’t know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time but Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return (as pointed out previously). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months then will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). These happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

    In Revelation 19:11 heaven is opened to let the armies which are already there out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus at the second coming. These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 says the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven the saints had to get there some time earlier which would indicate an earlier rapture.

    After John is called up into heaven, he saw 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10) which is when Christians receive their rewards (or crowns) (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will receive them at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place. I do not think these elders are the Church however.

    Revelation 3:10 says the saints will be kept from the hour of temptation which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). The Church will be called home before that time.

    First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind.

    Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. I believe this is at the rapture. If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth.

    In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. I believe this is talking about the Holy Spirit which presently indwells believers.

    If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

    Why do you not believe the Rapture will take place before the Tribulation? I would be interested in hearing your views.
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