Originally posted by no1marauderThank God I had the foresight to place this thread in Spirituality.
Stoning would be good, too: maybe we could gather up a mob of fundamentalists every week right before the 9 AM Mass for the executions in every town, hamlet and village in the good ole USA. That would put them in the proper frame of mind for readings of scripture like the Midianite Massacre. And it would build a good community feeling (for the survivors, of course).
Originally posted by ColettiActually I agree, it's good to see how different people view things differently. Different takes on the same subject, and different interpretations on the same material.
I must give you credit - this has been an excellent thread. Not evey post mind you, but overall - not bad. Not bad at all.
Life is grand.
Nyxie
Originally posted by ivanhoeI am asking a relevant question. Your position is that abortion is murder because
He is surely acting out very badly ..... maybe he is No1's twin brother, but is too afraid to tell us ...... 😛
the fetus is a person, but you don't want to impose any penalties for this murder.
This strikes me as absurd.
Your position is that a fetus is a person. Drinking and smoking during pregancy
has a markedly deleterious effect on the fetus for the rest of its life, pre- and
post-partum. Yet you are not willing to penalize the mother who drinks and
smokes as the child- (person-) abuser that you must concede she is. This strikes
me as absurd.
I am and have been asking you politely to reconcile what appears to be an inconsistency
in your position. You can admit its absurdity or you can explain why it actually isn't
absurd.
So far, you've declined to do this because you 'aren't in the mood.' I hope that, for the
sake of all the people on this site who look to you as an avid anti-abortion paragon, you
will find the time and inclination to address these concerns, for the sake of your cause.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NyxieThe argument technically does not talk about abortion at all. However the basic ideas behind my argument lead me to feel abortion is acceptable, at least in the beginning of pregnancy. The evidence I am aware of suggest that a cluster of cells that could someday develop into a baby is not capable of suffering or joy. Killing the fetus/embryo/blastula/whatever before it's capable of experiencing these things is not a crime.
In this argument would abortion be acceptable?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungBut, how to know when the transition from non-experience to experience takes place in the being that will become sentient? As that is impossible, abortion is at best a terrible gamble.
Killing the fetus/embryo/blastula/whatever before it's capable of experiencing these things is not a crime.
Originally posted by Nemesio
I am asking a relevant question. Your position is that abortion is murder because
the fetus is a person, but you don't want to impose any penalties for this murder.
This strikes me as absurd.
Your position is that a fetus is a person. Drinking and smoking during pregancy
has a markedly deleterious effect on the fetus for the rest of its life, [i]pre ...[text shortened]... find the time and inclination to address these concerns, for the sake of your cause.
Nemesio
First of all I never claimed I would not want to impose any penalty in case of abortion.
Secondly I did adress your question but apparently you are not satisfied with it. I told you I am not so much into punishment as some on this site would want people to believe.
What I want to achieve is a change in behaviour on the pregnant women's part. I am not interested in punishment.
If this strikes you as absurd then maybe you should try to understand this with your mind ánd your heart.
Tell me, what are you trying to achieve by punishing a pregnant woman who either smokes or/and drinks ? ... and what punishment would you like to propose ?
Thank you, Ivanhoe, for resuming the discussion of this. I'm glad that you are in a better
mood today.
Originally posted by ivanhoe
First of all I never claimed I would not want to impose any penalty in case of abortion.
Since you've said that abortion is the termination of a child's life (albeit an unborn child),
one would have to conclude that engaging in or performing an abortion is murder.
Question: Do you feel that the penalties for pre-born murder should be the same as
infanticide? If not, why not?
Originally posted by ivanhoe
What I want to achieve is a change in behaviour on the pregnant women's part. I am not interested in punishment.
...
Tell me, what are you trying to achieve by punishing a pregnant woman who either smokes or/and drinks ? ... and what punishment would you like to propose ?
Let us say that the pregnant woman knows the risks and she smokes and drinks anyway.
After all, it is pretty much common knowledge that smoking is horrible for an unborn child,
but let's assume that the woman in question is fully aware and does it anyway.
Since the unborn child is a person, then smoking while pregnant is abuse of that person.
Question: By smoking, is a woman 'abusing' her (unborn) child and, if so, should
she be punished for this abuse? And, if she should be punished, should her punishment
be commensurate with similar penalties for (post-partum) child abuse?
Thank you, Ivanhoe, for your consideration in these serious questions on these serious
issues. I assure you that my mind and heart are opened to your answers.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioIvanH: "Tell me, what are you trying to achieve by punishing a pregnant woman who either smokes or/and drinks ? ... and what punishment would you like to propose ?"
Thank you, Ivanhoe, for resuming the discussion of this. I'm glad that you are in a better
mood today.
Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]First of all I never claimed I would not want to impose any penalty in case of abortion.[/b ...[text shortened]... you that my mind and heart are opened to your answers.
Nemesio
If you would answer these questions then we will be able to continue our discussion.
Nemesio: " Question: Do you feel that the penalties for pre-born murder should be the same as
infanticide? If not, why not?"
These and other related questions are not the issue here. Open a new thread if you want to discuss this. Maybe I'll join you. But knowing I am not interested in punishment you may know my reaction to these questions.
Would you be so kind and answer the questions I asked ?
To help you remember:
"Tell me, what are you trying to achieve by punishing a pregnant woman who either smokes or/and drinks ? ... and what punishment would you like to propose, Nemesio ?"
Originally posted by eagles54Tell it to the pregnant woman; I have not problem with people trying to convince a woman not to have an abortion. Just keep it out of the criminal law like Roe v. Wade says and I'm satisfied. BTW, my position is based on the personal autonomy of the pregnant woman under Lockean, fundamental rights theory; the "non-experience" or "experience" of a non-viable fetus is irrelevant in my view.
But, how to know when the transition from non-experience to experience takes place in the being that will become sentient? As that is impossible, abortion is at best a terrible gamble.