Problem of Divine Hiddenness

Originally posted by LemonJello
Again, premise (2) only states that it is necessary for one to believe God exists in order for one to be in a position to participate in relationships with God. This seems obviously, and just conceptually, true. For instance, consider the interpersonal relationships in which you participate in your life. Are they not all with persons that you believe e ...[text shortened]... e nothing more than contradiction on your part. I do not understand. Could you please clarify?

"position to participate "
It comes to where you are in a position to participate and God can take you
no matter where you are or how you tried to shut yourself out. If you
answer His call can lead you into a relationship with him.

No matter what position you are in, if you are not in a relationship with God
where you have God's Spirit, your not in a good place. No one is where
they are "supposed" to be in life without God I don't care if you claim to
believe or not! You can even claim to be Christian, if you do it without God
in your life, you are still outside of God, and in my opinion in a worse place
than someone who claims they don't believe in God.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"position to participate "
It comes to where you are in a position to participate and God can take you
no matter where you are or how you tried to shut yourself out. If you
answer His call can lead you into a relationship with him.

No matter what position you are in, if you are not in a relationship with God
where you have God's Spirit, your not in a ...[text shortened]... d, and in my opinion in a worse place
than someone who claims they don't believe in God.
Kelly

It comes to where you are in a position to participate and God can take you
no matter where you are or how you tried to shut yourself out.

What does this have to do with premise (2)? Premise (2) does not concern what is within's God's power to do. It concerns a necessary component for what we can do. Again, it asserts that in order to be in a position to participate (i.e., being able to do so just by trying) in a meaningful relationship with God, it is necessary that one hold the belief that God exists. Since you claim that premise (2) is false, please provide a counterexample that entails (2) is false. For instance, provide a coherent hypothetical example in which you, say, actively participate in an interpersonal relationship with S but where you do not hold the belief that S exists. Please go ahead and describe to me what such a relationship would be like.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with premise (2) either, as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by LemonJello

It comes to where you are in a position to participate and God can take you
no matter where you are or how you tried to shut yourself out.

What does this have to do with premise (2)? Premise (2) does not concern what is within's God's power to do. It concerns a necessary component for what we can do. Again, it asserts that in order t ...[text shortened]... like.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with premise (2) either, as far as I can tell.

We can do NOTHING, it is always God! On our own we will not come to
God unless He draws us. We will not move towards and accept Him if
He does not call us. He calls we answer, if He stops calling and drawing
we will be left to our own devices, so look around people in their own
devices want nothing to do with God, without a doubt they want nothing
to do with God on God's terms. So when God's terms are the only one
that God accepts, our position in life is basically meaningless. He calls
we come, if we reject than we reject.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
Since the theists here have been oh so gracious and responsive to discussion regarding my recent original argument submission ( Thread 158639 ) as well as a submission from the literature ( Thread 158939 )...ahem...here is another offering for debate from the literature. It is an argument by John Schellenberg. I think it ough ...[text shortened]... ents, etc. So, it is a good way to get background perspectives from both sides of the argument.

God is not hidden.

We ......who have been in this material creation for many many births have been so conditioned to think that life just goes on and on without any thought to how everything can exist so splendidly.

This type of consciousness is dishonest consciousness.

How can this world exist the way it does exist without a Supreme Controller ( God )

The dishonest mind will invent evolution and big bang and even false religion.

Dishonest consciousness cannot know God or love God.

Every living thing has an eternal relationship with God but only honest consciousness can revive that relationship.

Is the sun truly hidden by a little cloud?

Dishonest consciousness is like the little cloud which blocks the sun.

Originally posted by Dasa
God is not hidden.

We ......who have been in this material creation for many many births have been so conditioned to think that life just goes on and on without any thought to how everything can exist so splendidly.

This type of consciousness is dishonest consciousness.

How can this world exist the way it does exist without a Supreme Controller ( God ) ...[text shortened]... den by a little cloud?

Dishonest consciousness is like the little cloud which blocks the sun.

Truly, you would know. "Dishonest consciousness". There can be no better description of what you display here.

How can you appear so "enlightened" and yet still be so far from God?

I'd think that must be frustrating for you. Maybe not. After all, you must be used to it by now.

Originally posted by KellyJay
We can do NOTHING, it is always God! On our own we will not come to
God unless He draws us. We will not move towards and accept Him if
He does not call us. He calls we answer, if He stops calling and drawing
we will be left to our own devices, so look around people in their own
devices want nothing to do with God, without a doubt they want nothing
to d ...[text shortened]... osition in life is basically meaningless. He calls
we come, if we reject than we reject.
Kelly

Sorry, I do not really understand what you are arguing with respect to the opening argument. Which premise do you think you are arguing against right now?

There are only three substantial premises: 1, 2, and 4 (3 and 5 just represent deductions from these three). So, you need to reject at least one of 1, 2, or 4. In your initial response, you seemed to be arguing against premise 1 on the basis that "belief is not enough...." But I explained why that is an insufficient basis to argue against any of the premises, let alone premise 1; so you backed off that. Then you claimed you were arguing against premise 2, but the reasoning you gave for why did not make any sense. Now, I simply have no idea what premise you presume to argue against because most of what you say, even if true, is just irrelevant to the argument.

Premise 1 just basically claims that if a perfectly loving God exists, then all mature creatures who have not already willfully or emotively shut themselves off from God are able to participate in relationships with God if they try to do so. Do you agree with this or not?

Premise 2 just basically claims that in order for a creature to be able to participate in such relationships if they try to do so, it is necessary that this creature at least believe God exists. Do you agree with this or not?

Premise 4 just basically claims that not all mature creatures who have not already willfully or emotively shut themselves off from God believe God exists. Do you agree with this or not?

Originally posted by Dasa
God is not hidden.

We ......who have been in this material creation for many many births have been so conditioned to think that life just goes on and on without any thought to how everything can exist so splendidly.

This type of consciousness is dishonest consciousness.

How can this world exist the way it does exist without a Supreme Controller ( God ) ...[text shortened]... den by a little cloud?

Dishonest consciousness is like the little cloud which blocks the sun.

"Dishonest consciousness"?!?

Which specific premise(s) of the argument do you reject and why?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Sorry, I do not really understand what you are arguing with respect to the opening argument. Which premise do you think you are arguing against right now?

There are only three substantial premises: 1, 2, and 4 (3 and 5 just represent deductions from these three). So, you need to reject at least one of 1, 2, or 4. In your initial response, you seemed ...[text shortened]... y or emotively shut themselves off from God believe God exists. Do you agree with this or not?

I think none of the premises matter!
It isn't where we are now, be it rejecting God being real or not.
The point isn't that any status we are currently in that keeps us from God.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think none of the premises matter!
It isn't where we are now, be it rejecting God being real or not.
The point isn't that any status we are currently in that keeps us from God.
Kelly

Well, the argument is clearly logically valid. So, if you do not agree with the conclusion, then you are rationally committed to rejection of one or more of those premises I mentioned. I guess this point is lost on you.

If you think none of the premises matter, then I would presume whatever is entailed by those premises should be of no matter to you. So the conclusion that there is no perfectly loving God does not matter to you as well?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Well, the argument is clearly logically valid. So, if you do not agree with the conclusion, then you are rationally committed to rejection of one or more of those premises I mentioned. I guess this point is lost on you.

If you think none of the premises matter, then I would presume whatever is entailed by those premises should be of no matter to you. So the conclusion that there is no perfectly loving God does not matter to you as well?

The point isn't lost on me, I just reject it.
I don't see how you can go from me rejecting a human is not out of
reach of finding God no matter what state they are currently in, to
there is no perfectly loving God? I believe that shows God is loving, that
we can be anywhere doing anything, rejecting anything or everything,
and still God can reach them.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think none of the premises matter!

Abandon all hope.
Throw away logic.

How can you debate with this?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The point isn't lost on me, I just reject it.
I don't see how you can go from me rejecting a human is not out of
reach of finding God no matter what state they are currently in, to
there is no perfectly loving God? I believe that shows God is loving, that
we can be anywhere doing anything, rejecting anything or everything,
and still God can reach them.
Kelly

A character like this would be laughed out of any Hollywood film as unbelievable!

Mankind first hid from God, so I believe God is now hiding from mankind to let mankind experience the feeling of God hiding from mankind.

Originally posted by Dasa
God is not hidden.

We ......who have been in this material creation for many many births have been so conditioned to think that life just goes on and on without any thought to how everything can exist so splendidly.

This type of consciousness is dishonest consciousness.

How can this world exist the way it does exist without a Supreme Controller ( God ) ...[text shortened]... den by a little cloud?

Dishonest consciousness is like the little cloud which blocks the sun.

In creation, God brought forth a physical earth from His heart. His word of love brought forth life. We mankind, are His children.

I don't think that it is dishonest conscience, rather a deceived conscience. Deceived to think that there is no God. That it is the human race that creates it's own destiny. That we are limited to this moment on earth and that there is nothing more.

All God seeks is for us to love Him, deeply!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Mankind first hid from God, so I believe God is now hiding from mankind to let mankind experience the feeling of God hiding from mankind.

God has never hid from mankind. It is mankind that chooses to ignore Him.