05 Jan 10
Originally posted by Proper KnobFair enough. What I meant to say was that the Christian belief system is unique in that it is based in historical events. That the earliest Christians believed that Christ was God can be established from a variety of historical sources.
[b]This belief is based in historical fact established by documents whose reliability puts the rest of recorded history to shame.
There is no historical fact, as you put it, that Jesus was God. This view is based on 'faith', not 'fact'.[/b]
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasThat doctrine was not taught by Christ or Paul.
[b]Why do you continue to preach your false doctines in the name of Christ.
Are you talking about doctrine of Christ's divinity, which has been taught since the inception of the early church, and remains today the most widely accepted doctrine among theologians? That one? Sir, you speak as if the doctrine of Christ's divinity were some fringe element I'm attempting to foist upon Christendom. 😀[/b]
The Bible says God sent his son Jesus Christ to die for the mankind's sins and you say God died for the sins of man. The Bible says God is the head of Christ and you say God and Christ are one and the same.
So clearly, following the crowd in matters of religious beliefs is not a virtue and can lead you astray.
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06 Jan 10
Originally posted by Rajk999The Bible says God sent his son Jesus Christ to die for the mankind's sins and you say God died for the sins of man. The Bible says God is the head of Christ and you say God and Christ are one and the same.
That doctrine was not taught by Christ or Paul.
So clearly, following the crowd in matters of religious beliefs is not a virtue and can lead you astray.
Those who have an orthodox understanding of the Trinity and Incarnation do not believe that God died for the sins of the man nor that God and Christ are the same thing. Because the Son is not the Father, we do not say 'God died for our sins' because that would suggest that the Father and Son are the same person and that the whole Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, was incarnate. They are one in being but not in person. So only Jesus the Son died for our sins, not the whole Godhead. Trinitarians would also say that God is the head of Christ for two reasons:
1. Jesus Christ was both man and God; as a man, he had to surrender his will to God (as in Gethsemane) and hence God was his head.
2. The Son is begotten to the Father, proceeds from the Father and derives his existence from the Father. So God the Father always is the head of the son. In this way, Jesus says 'The Father is greater than I'.
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI guess it is kind of confusing the way I put it, even though it is essentially true that God died for our sins (given that Christ is God). Thanks for clearing that up.
[b]The Bible says God sent his son Jesus Christ to die for the mankind's sins and you say God died for the sins of man. The Bible says God is the head of Christ and you say God and Christ are one and the same.
Those who have an orthodox understanding of the Trinity and Incarnation do not believe that God died for the sins of the man nor that God and ...[text shortened]... ther always is the head of the son. In this way, Jesus says 'The Father is greater than I'.[/b]
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KThat makes sense and is in keeping with the wording and proper interpretation of the NT teaching of the relationship between God and Christ. However what Epi and Jaywill preaches around here sounds like a load of BS to me.
[b]The Bible says God sent his son Jesus Christ to die for the mankind's sins and you say God died for the sins of man. The Bible says God is the head of Christ and you say God and Christ are one and the same.
Those who have an orthodox understanding of the Trinity and Incarnation do not believe that God died for the sins of the man nor that God and ...[text shortened]... ther always is the head of the son. In this way, Jesus says 'The Father is greater than I'.[/b]
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasYou say that Conrau affirmed Christ is God.
Dude, you just said that Conrau's explanation of Christ's relationship with the Father 'made sense'. Perhaps you missed it, but Conrau definitely affirmed that Christ is God.
Conrau said : ".. the Son is not the Father.."
Thats even more proof that you lack the ability to read and understand:
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06 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasYes, that is my position but with a few footnotes. The Father is God preeminently; he is the first person. The Son is begotten of the Father and so while he is God, he is not the same as the Father (just as a thought and word correspond to the same object in reality but are obviously not the same). Christ is the name we give to the Son incarnate. Incarnate, however, we also have to say that Christ had everything human, a human mind and human will. So while I would say that Christ is God, I would not use 'Christ' and 'God' interchangeably, because Christ is a man too, which God is not, and Christ does not represent the fullness of the Godhead, Father and Holy Spirit.
Of course the Son is not the Father, but as Conrau affirmed, Christ is also God.
07 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KYour version of the Trinity is more in keeping with NT teachings. God and Christ are separate and distinct entities as clearly taught in the Bible.
Yes, that is my position but with a few footnotes. The Father is God preeminently; he is the first person. The Son is begotten of the Father and so while he is God, he is not the same as the Father (just as a thought and word correspond to the same object in reality but are obviously not the same). Christ is the name we give to the Son incarnate. Incarnate, ...[text shortened]... d is not, and Christ does not represent the fullness of the Godhead, Father and Holy Spirit.
08 Jan 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOne does not mean they are the same ... they remain separate and distinct, and not necessaryly equal to. Christ was also one with the disciples but each and every disciple were distinct and separate and unequal. A man is one with his wife but still distinct and separate and unequal. The concept is used many times and always those involved remained distinct and separate and unequal :
Although distinct personalities...
John 10:30
"I and [my] Father are one."
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
08 Jan 10
1 edit
the father and i are one, John 10:30
Or, “at unity.” Lit., “one (thing).” Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.
if we are to take the bold assertions of those vain trinitarians seriously, then the disciples must also be part of the trinity,
(John 17:21) . . .in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. . .
yes they are unscrupulous in hand picking scriptures in an attempt to substantiate their dogma, thankfully the word of God is able, in itself, to refute such underhanded reasoning's!
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08 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieActually, Catholics do believe that they are part of the Trinity, not as another member of the Trinity, but in participating in the Trinity through Christ. We believe that we receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and we believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within us in prayer (1Cor 16:19). We do not believe that we become another member of the Trinity but in being united in the body of Christ we participate in the life of the Trinity.
the father and i are one, John 10:30
Or, “at unity.” Lit., “one (thing).” Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.
if we are to take the bold assertions of those vain trinitarians seriously, then the disciples must also be part of the trinity,
(John 17:21) . . .in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union w ...[text shortened]... r dogma, thankfully the word of God is able, in itself, to refute such underhanded reasoning's!