Proper Christian living in a multi-religious context

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what does this say? i shall put it in bold so that there is no mistaking it.

1. A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as [b]the feast of the Saviour's passover[/b]

Again, a 'feast' is not a meal; it is a celebration or commemoration. Christmas was also called the feast of the nativity. You are not understanding these terms in their historical context.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Again, a 'feast' is not a meal; it is a celebration or commemoration. Christmas was also called the feast of the nativity. You are not understanding these terms in their historical context.

look at the lengths you are willing to go to, my goodness man, we are talking of the same celebration that Christ instituted on the same day as the passover, the lords evening meal, are you claiming that this is Easter? surely not? Not only that, it was handed down to Polycarp as an apostolic tradition, clearly showing that it was the practice to celebrate the lords evening meal, annually on the same occasion that the Jews celebrated the passover, why you cannot see this very simple truth, i do not know. What is more i appeal to the forum, please tell me that this is so, anybody that knows anything about it, I really do think that you are being unreasonable to the extreme. a feast is not a meal now, my goodness, black is white and white is black Conrau plueeeeeze!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
look at the lengths you are willing to go to, my goodness man, we are talking of the same celebration that Christ instituted on the same day as the passover, the lords evening meal, are you claiming that this is Easter? surely not? Not only that, it was handed down to Polycarp as an apostolic tradition, clearly showing that it was the practice to c ...[text shortened]... that knows anything about it, I really do think that you are being unreasonable to the extreme.

Yes. That is exactly what I am claiming. That is how it has always been understood. Look up quartodecimans on wikipedia or another encyclopedia. The dispute was always about when the church should commemorate the passover. The Church eventually resolved to move the celebration to the first Sunday, with the preceding Friday commemorating his death and the Sunday commemorating his resurrection.

Clearly it does not refer to the actual celebration of the Lord's supper because Polycarp celebrated the Eucharist in Rome and he was the representative of the Asiatic churches.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Yes. That is exactly what I am claiming. That is how it has always been understood. Look up quartodecimans on wikipedia or another encyclopedia. The dispute was always about when the church should commemorate the passover. The Church eventually resolved to move the celebration to the first Sunday, with the preceding Friday commemorating his death and the Su olycarp celebrated the Eucharist in Rome and he was the representative of the Asiatic churches.

it is unbelievable, it realy is? when did the apostles ever, celebrate a festival, with a pagan name, essentially a fertility right, borrowed from Pagans and given the usual nominal Christian veneer, on the same day as the passover? when, that is right, never, not on your life! he is referring to the lords evening meal, a celebration of the memorial of Christs death, i do not buy anyone interpretation of it otherwise, not yours, not the catholic churches, not wikipedias. It is perfectly clear what he is referring, and its not Easter!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is unbelievable, it realy is? when did the apostles ever, celebrate a festival, with a pagan name, essentially a fertility right, borrowed from Pagans and given the usual nominal Christian veneer, on the same day as the paassover? when, that is right, never, not on your life! he is referring to the lords evening meal, a celebration of the memor ...[text shortened]... holic churches, not wikipedias. It is perfectly clear what he is referring, and its not Easter!

I am not saying that they used the name 'Easter'. What I am saying is that it refers to the same thing as Easter. When Catholics talk about Easter, they mean the paschal feast. This is different from the Lord's supper. I can't believe you are putting this forward. Your position has no respectable historical evidence. You have completely misrepresented the dispute with the quatrodecimans.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I am not saying that they used the name 'Easter'. What I am saying is that it refers to the same thing as Easter. When Catholics talk about Easter, they mean the paschal feast. This is different from the Lord's supper. I can't believe you are putting this forward. Your position has no respectable historical evidence. You have completely misrepresented the dispute with the quatrodecimans.

look at the context for goodness sake,

All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel

we cannot be referring to the Jewish passover can we, then what passover are we referring to, that is correct, 'Christ our passover', the memorial of the Lord Jesus Christ death! the lords evening meal. its not a misrepresentation, its a simple statement of fact.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
look at the context for goodness sake,

All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel

we cannot be referring to the Jewish passover can we, then what passover are we referring to, that is correct, 'Christ our passover', the memorial of the Lord Jesus Christ death! the lords evening meal.

You are reading history through a bizarre Jehovah's Witness lens. Since the early church, the year has been divided up into a series of feasts. The 25th of December came to be the feast of the nativity (although other dates were used.) There were many other feasts, especially commemorating the early Christian martyrs. A feast is basically a particular day set aside to commemorate a person or event. The first Sunday came to be the commemoration of the Lord's death and resurrection, also known as the paschal feast.

The Lord's supper however is not a feast. You have completely misinterpreted it.

Originally posted by Conrau K
You are reading history through a bizarre Jehovah's Witness lens. Since the early church, the year has been divided up into a series of feasts. The 25th of December came to be the feast of the nativity (although other dates were used.) There were many other feasts, especially commemorating the early Christian martyrs. A feast is basically a particular day s l feast.

The Lord's supper however is not a feast. You have completely misinterpreted it.

excuse me, i shall be back in a minute, i need to go and feel my wife's bum to make sure im not dreaming!

i am not saying that it is a feast in the general sense, you are attributing beliefs that i do not hold, i am saying, as the text clearly states, that it is a celebration of the lords evening meal, as Paul states it, in remembrance of 'Christ our passover'. Note the word 'passover', its fairly significant in this instance!

here is the references AGAIN from your posted text

1. A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's passover.

and AGAIN

All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel,

any of this getting through? i have no concept of feast days, its an entirely catholic phenomena, almost to this day. i am merely asserting that we are talking of the lords evening meal, its simple, and clear. it was, as the text states, celebrated annually, on the corresponding Jewish month of Nisan fourteenth, as the historical evidence has clearly shown.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
excuse me, i shall be back in a minute, i need to go and feel my wife's bum to make sure im not dreaming!

Why not go do some reading instead. 'Feast' is related to the word 'festival', both coming from the Latin 'festus'. The question debated by the quartodecimans was when the Lord's death and resurrection should be commemorated. I do not know whether the institution of the Eucharist has its own feast day although I think it would.

i am not saying that it is a feast, you are attributing beliefs that i do not hold, i am saying, as the text clearly states, that it is a celebration of the lords evening meal, as Paul states it, in remembrance of 'Christ our passover'. Note the word 'passover', its fairly significant in this instance!

Ah, yeah, what is your point? These 2nd century Christians were not debating when the Lord's supper should be celebrated (clearly they did it throughout the year); what they debated is when in the year it should receive a particular liturgical feast day.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Why not go do some reading instead. 'Feast' is related to the word 'festival', both coming from the Latin 'festus'. The question debated by the quartodecimans was when the Lord's death and resurrection should be commemorated. I do not know whether the institution of the Eucharist has its own feast day although I think it would.

[b]i am not saying that it ...[text shortened]... hey debated is when in the year it should receive a particular liturgical feast day.

please see the edited text, the point has been corrobrated and you cannot deny it any further!

Here is an excerpt from the writings of St Justin the Martyr

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. ButSunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm#chapter65

This was written long before the dispute with the quartodecimans (who mind you would not have disagreed here). St Justin clearly describes the celebration of the Lord's supper, the consecration of bread and wine, the re-presentation of the sacrifice, as a weekly ritual.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
please see the edited text, the point has been corrobrated and you cannot deny it any further!

So what? I don't dispute that the apostles continued to celebrate the passover. They saw themselves as Jews; they continued to demand circumcision and observe the Sabbath. They did however also celebrate the Lord's supper each week, Acts 20:7 being strong evidence in favor of this ritual. You are the only person I know who, and I suppose out of historical ignorance, thinks that this refers to a casual meal.

Originally posted by Conrau K
So what? I don't dispute that the apostles continued to celebrate the passover. They saw themselves as Jews; they continued to demand circumcision and observe the Sabbath. They did however also celebrate the Lord's supper each week, Acts 20:7 being strong evidence in favor of this ritual. You are the only person I know who, and I suppose out of historical ignorance, thinks that this refers to a casual meal.

why would the Apsotles celebrate the passover? Paul clearly states that the law was nullified, and as you are aware letters were circulated from the brothers in jerusalem that circumcision was no longer binding,

(Acts 15:27-29) . . .We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also may report the same things by word.  For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favourite adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things,  to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you”

i therefore count your admission as a victory for common dense and decency. You should look up and research the phrase, 'Christ our passover'.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Here is an excerpt from the writings of St Justin the Martyr

[quote]Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, an ...[text shortened]... e consecration of bread and wine, the re-presentation of the sacrifice, as a weekly ritual.

then St Justin has deviated from the pattern set and handed down by John.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why would the Apsotles celebrate the passover? Paul clearly states that the law was nullified, and as you are aware letters were circulated from the brothers in jerusalem that circumcision was no longer binding,

(Acts 15:27-29) . . .We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also may report the same things by word.  For the holy spi ...[text shortened]... common dense and decency. You should look up and research the phrase, 'Christ our passover'.

Again, I concede that the apostles practiced the passover as faithful Jews; I do not concede that they only celebrated the Lord's supper once a year. Acts 20:7, referring to the breaking of bread, clearly indicates that the Lord's supper was celebrated at other times.