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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 05 Mar '05 15:45
    Kelly Jay,

    When I first visited the forums a long time ago everything was ok, so it seemed. I thought I could freely speak my mind, so it seemed. I told people very openly I returned to my original faith, Roman-Catholicism, after 25 years of investigating and researching several other options. This period and the period thereafter was a very difficult time for me for several private reasons. But ever since these liberals, or freethinkers as some of them prefer to label themselves, knew I was a Roman Catholic they didn't stop attacking me. I had to fight and fight and fight to get some room to move here at RHP. They present themselves as "enlightened" and tolerant people, enlightened by reason they claim, but too many times I've encountered from them insults, mud-slinging, intolerant bigotry of the worst kind, sabotaging in sometimes most vulgar ways threads I initiated, etc, etc.
    I never encountered such vehement hatred and intolerance in my own country, the Netherlands. However, I learned how to fight back.
    Many Christian debaters decided not to post anymore in the forums because of the hostility and bigotry they had to endure. Even children who expressed religious ideas were insulted, degraded and bullied. You can imagine those people didn't have much pleasure in returning to the forums. Many followed their example and that was exactly what those bigots want: to drive Christians away from the forums, they want them to shut up or they want them to adapt to their own liberal ideology, the New Ideology.
    Only those Christians, the liberal Christians who do not object to their liberal ideology are tolerated, those Christians that keep their convictions between the four walls of their homes, they are accepted by these self proclaimed Champions of Freedom and Free Speech.

    I hope and pray you and others who came forward and in the future will come forward and present themselves as genuine and sincere Christians will have the courage and the endurance to withstand all the hatred and bigotry they will encounter here.

    Ivanhoe.



    I want to invite every genuine and sincere Christian on the site to tell us about their experiences here in the forums at RHP.

    Any thoughts ?
  2. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    05 Mar '05 16:14
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Kelly Jay,

    When I first visited the forums a long time ago everything was ok, so it seemed. I thought I could freely speak my mind, so it seemed. I told people very openly I returned to my original faith, Roman-Catholicism, after 25 years of investigating and researching several other options. This period and the period thereafter was a very difficult tim ...[text shortened]... tian on the site to tell us about their experiences here in the forums at RHP.

    Any thoughts ?
    That's quite a martyr complex you've got going there, Ivanhoe. But the plain fact is that you're free to post whatever you want on these forums. You've made thousands of posts and have gotten 400+ recs for it somehow. If anyone is trying to censor you, they've done a pretty poor job of it. But being free to post in these forums doesn't mean you're immune from dissenting points of view. If you don't want anyone to argue with your point of view then go start your own website where you can dictate it's contents.
  3. Subscriber BigDoggProblem
    The Advanced Mind
    05 Mar '05 17:28
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    I want to invite every genuine and sincere Christian on the site to tell us about their experiences here in the forums at RHP.

    Any thoughts ?
    Yes, a couple questions.

    1) Of the christians who are posting on this site, which ones do you think are genuine and sincere, and which ones are not?

    2) Do you believe there is a difference (if any) between a christian and a catholic?
  4. 05 Mar '05 17:43
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    ... I thought I could freely speak my mind...
    By all means, speak freely here.

    I enjoy reading points of view that are different than my own. When time permits, I toss in a challenge or two to what Believers espouse, but I hope I do so in a civil way.
  5. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    05 Mar '05 20:33
    Of course there is hatred towards Christianity here. Jesus warned us of this. But to me it just strengthens my faith that the mere mention of God is enough for people to see red. Clearly that hatred needs a source.
  6. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    05 Mar '05 20:49
    Ever stop to think that you might be part of that source?

    And I don't hate xtianity. I hate narrow-minded fundamentalism. These are not always the same thing.
  7. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    05 Mar '05 20:59
    Originally posted by telerion
    Ever stop to think that you might be part of that source?

    And I don't hate xtianity. I hate narrow-minded fundamentalism. These are not always the same thing.
    You're right. One is actually doing what is necessary to be considered a Christian by the source and one is putting a label on yourself.
  8. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    05 Mar '05 21:08
    Originally posted by Darfius
    You're right. One is actually doing what is necessary to be considered a Christian by the source and one is putting a label on yourself.
    Let me remind you, you are not a "True Christian."

    You lie about the scriptures to defend your unsupported claims on a chess discussion board. This is not keeping Jesus' commandments. It should be apparent when agnostic/atheists and "true christians" like kirk and Nemesio have to correct your lies about the Word of God.
  9. Standard member Darfius
    The Apologist
    05 Mar '05 21:15
    Originally posted by telerion
    Let me remind you, you are not a "True Christian."

    You lie about the scriptures to defend your unsupported claims on a chess discussion board. This is not keeping Jesus' commandments. It should be apparent when agnostic/atheists and "true christians" like kirk and Nemesio have to correct your lies about the Word of God.
    Where have I lied? And what makes them true Christians?
  10. 05 Mar '05 22:47
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Kelly Jay,

    When I first visited the forums a long time ago everything was ok, so it seemed. I thought I could freely speak my mind, so it seemed. I told people very openly I returned to my original faith, Roman-Catholicism, after 25 years of investigating and researching several other options. This period and the period thereafter was a very difficult tim ...[text shortened]... tian on the site to tell us about their experiences here in the forums at RHP.

    Any thoughts ?
    I'm sorry ivanhoe, I don't see it the same way. Strong debate and firm stance is the majority of what you have come up against. You generally frequent the 'debate' forum and as such must be ready for exactly that. Just because people disagree with you, sometimes vehemently and sometimes heatedly, doesn't mean that you are being persecuted. There is currently some distaste in the forums because of the likes of Darfius et.al. I recently had to step out of a debate because I didn't want to come to insulting blows where I would have liked to continue debate instead. You just have to take a step back sometimes, the vast majority of people are here for debate and if you are feeling persecuted then I suggest you raise it with Russ or the mods.

    I have no problem with christians, they are entitled to their beliefs, I do not agree with them, but I respect the right for each person to choose. However, if you enter a debate forum to discuss those beliefs you have to take the rough with the smooth.
  11. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    05 Mar '05 23:26
    Originally posted by telerion
    It should be apparent when agnostic/atheists and "true christians" like kirk and Nemesio have to correct your lies about the Word of God.
    I am sure that Telerion did not intend to call me a Christian, as I have
    never made such a declaration. Indeed, Ivanhoe opines that I am a
    deist.

    I will say this: I do not believe that Darfius has ever 'lied' about the
    Word of God. I believe that a lie requires the intent to deceive. I
    think too highly of Darfius to believe that he would ever claim something
    that he knew to be false.

    However, Darfius has said things that, upon investigation, are provably
    false (like that anger is permissible in a Christian life or that it is a sin
    to ask for intercession from the dead). I hope that, upon reflection he
    will come to agree with these points (assuming he maintains a 'purely-
    Biblical' perspective (i.e., Sola Scriptura)).

    The thing that troubles me the most about Darfius's attitude is the degree
    to which he demonizes people of different faiths. I find that this sort of
    spite is both illogical (for faith, by definition, means belief in the unbelievable)
    and unChristian. His treatment of Moslems, Mormons and Roman Catholics
    have been unconscionable and, of late, he has refrained from such actions,
    which leads me to believe that he is seriously considering the possibility that
    such actions are not right.

    I don't mind his or anyone's preaching. I mind the 'I'm right, you're going to
    hell' point of view. He seems to have tamed his anger and, as such, I think
    we should be responsive to that.

    Nemesio
  12. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    05 Mar '05 23:42
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    I am sure that Telerion did not intend to call me a Christian, as I have
    never made such a declaration. Indeed, Ivanhoe opines that I am a
    deist.

    I will say this: I do not believe that Darfius has ever 'lied' about the
    Word of God. I believe that a lie requires the intent to deceive. I
    think too highly of Darfius to believe that he would ever c ...[text shortened]... seems to have tamed his anger and, as such, I think
    we should be responsive to that.

    Nemesio
    My apologies Nem.

    As you may not already know, I have ceased responding directly to Darfius. I don't know how you maintain such composure in the face of such obstinance to reason. I have found my discussions with him as irritating as fixing a printer.

  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    06 Mar '05 03:00
    Originally posted by telerion
    My apologies Nem.

    As you may not already know, I have ceased responding directly to Darfius. I don't know how you maintain such composure in the face of such obstinance to reason. I have found my discussions with him as irritating as fixing a printer.

    I've actually found him one of the more reasonable of the Born Agains...him and KellyJay.
  14. Standard member Nemesio
    Ursulakantor
    06 Mar '05 03:09 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I've actually found him one of the more reasonable of the Born Agains...him and KellyJay.
    This post was inappropriate because I misunderstood ATY's
    writing. (Edited 22:34 EDT)

    My apologies to all.

    Nemesio
  15. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    06 Mar '05 03:30
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I've actually found him one of the more reasonable of the Born Agains...him and KellyJay.
    Kelly Jay is far superior in my opinion.

    Darfius generally will begin reasonably enough, but once he has encountered the first signs of reasoned criticism, he reverts to some combination of the following techniques: assert per fiat, introduce a red herring, distort and then deconstruct dissenter's objection.
    Take a look at his posts on IIDB (the forum on www.infidels.org, go to advanced search and look for all posts by Darfius) to see a perfect example of what I am talking about.

    Now with Kelly Jay, while I may vehemently disagree with him on some issues, I almost always feel like he is reading my posts carefully and giving them consideration before rebutting.

    If I were to construct a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being most reasonable, it would look something like this

    Huntingbear (9)
    Kelly Jay (7.8)
    Pcaspian (7.3)
    CalJust (6)
    Darfius (4)
    Arby Hill (2)
    SVW (1)*
    Dj2becker (NA)**

    *-SVW of course is not a "Born-Again," but provides an excellent lower bound by which to calibrate the scale.

    **-Dj2becker cannot be measured as he does not post an original thought. If he did however, it would probably be very close to 1 based on the quality of his plagerized material.