1. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    01 Jan '10 12:51
    I have just stumbled across this forum and there are obviously a lot of well read people out there. I know very little about Christianity and I have two fundamental questions which can probably be easily answered.

    Question 1.

    Where did Satan come from? Was he created at the same time as God or did God create him? Explain.

    thanks
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91666
    01 Jan '10 12:56
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have just stumbled across this forum and there are obviously a lot of well read people out there. I know very little about Christianity and I have two fundamental questions which can probably be easily answered.

    Question 1.

    Where did Satan come from? Was he created at the same time as God or did God create him? Explain.

    thanks
    Is that question strictly for christians?
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    01 Jan '10 12:58
    I would be interested in any answers from Satan/god believers or students of the Bible or Koran.


    Thank you.
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91666
    01 Jan '10 13:05
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I would be interested in any answers from Satan/god believers or students of the Bible or Koran.


    Thank you.
    What about unbrainwashed people? 🙂
  5. Maryland
    Joined
    10 Jun '05
    Moves
    110622
    01 Jan '10 13:17
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    What about unbrainwashed people? 🙂
    First of all, as an atheist, there is no god and no satan. My understanding if Christianity is that god created everything and that would include satan, although satan was at first not evil. Either way, this is a slip up of god.
  6. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    01 Jan '10 13:38
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have just stumbled across this forum and there are obviously a lot of well read people out there. I know very little about Christianity and I have two fundamental questions which can probably be easily answered.

    Question 1.

    Where did Satan come from? Was he created at the same time as God or did God create him? Explain.

    thanks
    The traditional Christian mythology says that Lucifer (Satan) was created by god. But I suspect you knew that already.
  7. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    01 Jan '10 13:59
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The traditional Christian mythology says that Lucifer (Satan) was created by god. But I suspect you knew that already.
    I vaguely know of the myth of Lucifer being a "fallen angel" kicked out of heaven for disobeying god. (Can he repent and get salvation?)

    But Satan isnt necessarily Lucifer ... is he?
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91666
    01 Jan '10 14:251 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    First of all, as an atheist, there is no god and no satan. My understanding if Christianity is that god created everything and that would include satan, although satan was at first not evil. Either way, this is a slip up of god.
    But the christian God doesn't slip up🙄
    But yes , in my view the "force " that created satan was god. For all things are God.
    "Satan" has indeed corrupted the human race but there is no need to fear. The answers to this and many other questions are easy to understand,ie. if you're playing in the right ball park...
  9. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    01 Jan '10 14:251 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I vaguely know of the myth of Lucifer being a "fallen angel" kicked out of heaven for disobeying god. (Can he repent and get salvation?)

    But Satan isnt necessarily Lucifer ... is he?
    hi, Wolfgang, please consider this,

    Origin of Satan.

    The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (De 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Re 12:9)

    Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (Joh 8:44; 1Jo 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it.

    Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Ro 5:12) Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person.

    So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (Jas 1:14, 15) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19

    The Scriptural account, therefore, makes it plain that it was Satan who spoke through the medium of a serpent, seducing Eve into disobedience to God’s command. In turn, Eve induced Adam to take the same rebellious course. (Ge 3:1-7; 2Co 11:3) As a consequence of Satan’s use of the serpent, the Bible gives Satan the title “Serpent,” which came to signify “deceiver”; he also became “the Tempter” (Mt 4:3) and a liar, “the father of the lie.”—Joh 8:44; Re 12:9.

    if you require any of the Biblical passages to verify this, please let me know, regards Robbie.

    The Scriptures indicate that he has shown no repentance, and will ultimately be destroyed. In essence what his stance comes down to is one of megalomania, for he demanded to be worshipped as God, despite the fact that he is merely a created entity.
  10. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    01 Jan '10 14:27
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    But the christian God doesn't slip up🙄
    No he doesn't, but he has endowed everyone of his creatures with free will, they therefore, make themselves in opposition to him, through the exercise of their own free will.
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91666
    01 Jan '10 14:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    No he doesn't, but he has endowed everyone of his creatures with free will, they therefore, make themselves in opposition to him, through the exercise of their own free will.
    And this opposition is confirmed at every turn by almost every christian
  12. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    01 Jan '10 14:36
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    hi, Wolfgang, please consider this,

    Origin of Satan.

    The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is ...[text shortened]... a, for he demanded to be worshipped as God, despite the fact that he is merely a created entity.
    Thanks Robbie.

    So Satan was created by God as perfect.
    But he slipped up. surely he must have been imperfect when created?

    If I write a perfect computer program which is found to have bugs in 6 months down the line then it wasnt perfect in the first place (even tho those imperfections hadnt yet manifested themselves)

    ditto Adam and Eve both imperfect creations.

    I would have thought a satan NOT created by god would have made more sense because then imperfections in man could be attributed to Satan. As I understand what you are saying God created everything so that everything is down to him. That must present a whole lot of problems for believers!
  13. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    01 Jan '10 14:37
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    And this opposition is confirmed at every turn by almost every christian
    i can go one better, you have free will, do you not? therefore if you exercise that free will and ignoring the natural laws of aerodynamics try to fly, you shall indeed plummet to the ground. when i shall find you there, you shall state, but i wanted to fly, yes, that is your own choice, but to ignore the natural laws of aerodynamics is not good, despite the fact that you have free will, thus, it is exactly the same with God, shall you blame him because he did not make you with feathers? shall you blame him because he did not make you a robot? Ignore his laws and you shall suffer, but no one can say with any conviction, that in doing so, it was an oversight on Gods part, can they?
  14. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    01 Jan '10 14:462 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Thanks Robbie.

    So Satan was created by God as perfect.
    But he slipped up. surely he must have been imperfect when created?

    If I write a perfect computer program which is found to have bugs in 6 months down the line then it wasnt perfect in the first place (even tho those imperfections hadnt yet manifested themselves)

    ditto Adam and Eve both imp ...[text shortened]... hing so that everything is down to him. That must present a whole lot of problems for believers!
    no he was perfect, this fact is borne out in the description in the book of Ezekiel, which although addressed to the King of Tyre is considered to have a prophetic application to Satan, I reproduce it here for your perusal!


    (Ezekiel 28:13-17) . . .In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysolite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready.  You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about.  You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.  “‘“Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.  “‘“Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, for them to look upon you.

    Thus he was created perfect, but through the exercise of his own free will, he desired that which was forbidden, to one, worship, and became haughty in his disposition and thus took a course in opposition to God.

    Christ states it clearly, that he did not 'stand fast in the truth'.

    Once you realise that Adam and Eve were perfect, rather than providing a problem, it solves a whole lot of issues, for we understand why God exercised justice in their part, for they cannot attribute their infidelity to any imperfection, but made a decision, in full knowledge, to take a stance contrary to God and to establish their own morality.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91666
    01 Jan '10 14:54
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i can go one better, you have free will, do you not? therefore if you exercise that free will and ignoring the natural laws of aerodynamics try to fly, you shall indeed plummet to the ground. when i shall find you there, you shall state, but i wanted to fly, yes, that is your own choice, but to ignore the natural laws of aerodynamics is not good, d ...[text shortened]... o one can say with any conviction, that in doing so, it was an oversight on Gods part, can they?
    free will to conform to Gods Will,eh? This line of reasoning leads to shaky ground. On paper anyway.
Back to Top