Question 1

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i can go one better, you have free will, do you not? therefore if you exercise that free will and ignoring the natural laws of aerodynamics try to fly, you shall indeed plummet to the ground. when i shall find you there, you shall state, but i wanted to fly, yes, that is your own choice, but to ignore the natural laws of aerodynamics is not good, d ...[text shortened]... o one can say with any conviction, that in doing so, it was an oversight on Gods part, can they?

Impossible!! For the atheist God is all powerfull and all knowing and, therefore, is responsible for EVERYTHING, including evil. Of course, he is powerful enough to do anything EXCEPT giving us free will, thus making us soley responsible for our own sin. That is the ONLY thing an all powerful being and all knowing being is incapable of apparently.

I guess it depends on your definition of "perfect".

But I think most people would agree that something that can go wrong was never built "perfectly" from the start. I think that is a huge problem for believers and cannot understand why they have created religions with such a flaw.

Does anyone know of a major religion where the devil is not created by god?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I guess it depends on your definition of "perfect".

But I think most people would agree that something that can go wrong was never built "perfectly" from the start. I think that is a huge problem for believers and cannot understand why they have created religions with such a flaw.

Does anyone know of a major religion where the devil is not created by god?

yes, it does depend on your definition of perfect, and i always understood it to be relative perfection, in the sense that while God created them perfect, because of the exercise of free will, there was no guarantee that they would remain in such a state.

Originally posted by whodey
Impossible!! For the atheist God is all powerfull and all knowing and, therefore, is responsible for EVERYTHING, including evil. Of course, he is powerful enough to do anything EXCEPT giving us free will, thus making us soley responsible for our own sin. That is the ONLY thing an all powerful being and all knowing being is incapable of apparently.

Even an omnipotent god cannot create a logical contradiction. He could not create a square circle, for example. Likewise he cannot be omniscient and omnipotent and give someone 'free will.' The individual may think his actions are freely chosen, but they are all predetermined by the unfolding of causal chains set in motion by the creator god. Assuming he (it) exists.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If I write a perfect computer program which is found to have bugs in 6 months down the line then it wasnt perfect in the first place...

It may be helpful for you in this matter, to consider the complexities of sentient beings outside of the constraints of your experience with binary code.

Originally posted by divegeester
It may be helpful for you in this matter, to consider the complexities of sentient beings outside of the constraints of your experience with binary code.

You have added nothing to the discussion.

And it took you 2 edits!

Please shut-up.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
free will to conform to Gods Will,eh? This line of reasoning leads to shaky ground. On paper anyway.

I would like to assert that the contrary is true, for failure to adhere to Gods morality is well documented and readily available, on paper, as they say, thus the statement stands, you have free will to conform to the natural laws of aerodynamics, do you not?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You have added nothing to the discussion.

And it took you 2 edits!

Please shut-up.

Thank you, that was all I needed to know about you in this matter.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I would like to assert that the contrary is true, for failure to adhere to Gods morality is well documented and readily available, on paper, as they say, thus the statement stands, you have free will to conform to the natural laws of aerodynamics, do you not?

I have the free will to not engage in this topic any furthur. Suffice to say that I'm pretty sure you don't know what I'm on about.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I have the free will to not engage in this topic any furthur. Suffice to say that I'm pretty sure you don't know what I'm on about.

suffice to say that the feeling is entirely mutual!

Originally posted by rwingett
Even an omnipotent god cannot create a logical contradiction. He could not create a square circle, for example. Likewise he cannot be omniscient and omnipotent and give someone 'free will.' The individual may think his actions are freely chosen, but they are all predetermined by the unfolding of causal chains set in motion by the creator god. Assuming he (it) exists.

It is a logical contridiction to you, but that does not mean it is a logical contridiction. In fact, we face many such contradictions in the ministry of Christ such as, it is more blessed to give than to recieve, or to lead one must first serve. Of course, we can usually see through these apparent contridictions, but I say there are some we cannot. Of course, I think about these things as well, and this is may take. Evil is often described as "darkness". So does darkness exist? No. Darkness is only a discription of the absense of light. In fact, darkness does not exist. This is how I vies "sin" or "evil". This "darkness" in mens lives is only a discription of the absence of God's love in their hearts.

As for our will being predetermined, you make the assumption that it is impossible for God to be all knowning and all powerful and create us with a "free will". So be it. I, however, think God can do the "impossible". On the surface it appears to be a logical contradiction, but I don't believe it to be so. In fact, there are things I once though of as a logical contradiction in my life that exist, yet they exist. My wife is just one example. 😛

Originally posted by whodey
It is a logical contridiction to you, but that does not mean it is a logical contridiction. In fact, we face many such contradictions in the ministry of Christ such as, it is more blessed to give than to recieve, or to lead one must first serve. Of course, we can usually see through these apparent contridictions, but I say there are some we cannot. Of cour ...[text shortened]... radiction in my life that exist, yet they exist. My wife is just one example. 😛

i also thought of my wife, but i did not dare say it 🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
free will to conform to Gods Will,eh? This line of reasoning leads to shaky ground. On paper anyway.

Do not most parents give their children free will to decide on some things in life? But if the children do not conform to certain rules laid down by the parents, there are usually consequences aren't there?
Why would our creator not have guidelines for us to follow? And if you think about all the laws and regulations that God could have placed on them, he only had one. Do not touch the tree. That's it.

Originally posted by galveston75
Do not most parents give their children free will to decide on some things in life? But if the children do not conform to certain rules laid down by the parents, there are usually consequences aren't there?
Why would our creator not have guidelines for us to follow? And if you think about all the laws and regulations that God could have placed on them, he only had one. Do not touch the tree. That's it.

According to another poster in response to my question was the cruciciction planned.

The redemptive death and resurrection of Christ was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world.

" ... you were redeemed ... with the precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, [the blood] of Christ;

Thus implying that God knew Adam & Eve would fail and break His rule. Thats not very fair! What sort of God makes unreasonable (impossible) demands?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
According to another poster in response to my question was the cruciciction planned.

The redemptive death and resurrection of Christ was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world.

" ... you were redeemed ... with the precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, [the blood] of Christ;

Thus implying that God knew Adam & ...[text shortened]... break His rule. Thats not very fair! What sort of God makes unreasonable (impossible) demands?

Could you show me the scriptures that show God knew that Jesus was going to be a sacrifice before the earth was founded?