1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    01 Jan '10 12:52
    I have just stumbled across this forum and there are obviously a lot of well read people out there. I know very little about Christianity and I have two fundamental questions which can probably be easily answered.

    Question 2.

    Was the crucifiction planned? If so was it a good thing? explain.

    thanks
  2. Donationrwingett
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    01 Jan '10 13:36
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have just stumbled across this forum and there are obviously a lot of well read people out there. I know very little about Christianity and I have two fundamental questions which can probably be easily answered.

    Question 2.

    Was the crucifiction planned? If so was it a good thing? explain.

    thanks
    If there is a god, and if he is indeed omniscient and omnipotent, then everything is planned. Man's fall from grace was planned. Judas' betrayal was planned. The crucifixion was likewise planned.

    As an omnipotent god could easily have achieved his ends without all the turmoil and suffering, I fail to see how it could possibly be construed as 'good.'
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    01 Jan '10 17:41
    Just been reading some other threads which suggest that Jesus was crucified so that god would know of human suffereing..... I though he was 'all-knowing' anyway???

    Doesnt God's imagination/knowingness extend to the human-condition?

    I must admit this religion stuff is very confusing; I want to dismiss it as rubbish but i am genuinely interested in why/how a small minority of people believe in these stories.
  4. Pepperland
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    01 Jan '10 18:23
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Just been reading some other threads which suggest that Jesus was crucified so that god would know of human suffereing..... I though he was 'all-knowing' anyway???

    Doesnt God's imagination/knowingness extend to the human-condition?

    I must admit this religion stuff is very confusing; I want to dismiss it as rubbish but i am genuinely interested in why/how a small minority of people believe in these stories.
    why/how a small minority of people believe in these stories.

    last time I checked the atheists were the minority.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    01 Jan '10 18:51
    Apologies. Just my own personal experience talking. Although I think atheists are in the majority in UK
  6. Pepperland
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    01 Jan '10 19:04
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Apologies. Just my own personal experience talking. Although I think atheists are in the majority in UK
    Although I think atheists are in the majority in UK

    true, but this certainly isn't the case worldwide, far from it.
  7. Pepperland
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    01 Jan '10 19:07
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Just been reading some other threads which suggest that Jesus was crucified so that god would know of human suffereing..... I though he was 'all-knowing' anyway???

    Doesnt God's imagination/knowingness extend to the human-condition?

    I must admit this religion stuff is very confusing; I want to dismiss it as rubbish but i am genuinely interested in why/how a small minority of people believe in these stories.
    Don't listen to what people say here, if you really want to know why Jesus was crucified (and the theology around the whole story) just go to wikipedia.
  8. Joined
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    02 Jan '10 04:262 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I have just stumbled across this forum and there are obviously a lot of well read people out there. I know very little about Christianity and I have two fundamental questions which can probably be easily answered.

    Question 2.

    Was the crucifiction planned? If so was it a good thing? explain.

    thanks
    =============================
    Was the crucifiction planned?
    ==========================


    The redemptive death and resurrection of Christ was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world.

    " ... you were redeemed ... with the precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, [the blood] of Christ;

    Who was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has been manifested in the last times for your sake." (See 1 Peter 1:18-20)


    Again we see the Lamb of God [the Redeemer Jesus] was slain from the foundation of the world:

    " ... the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8)

    We also see the saved spoken of as having been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be recipients of His cleansing redemption:

    "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love" (Eph. 1:4)

    These are the kind of passages that one should not simply read. She or he should take them to God in prayer - talk to God about them honestly.
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    02 Jan '10 10:21
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=============================
    Was the crucifiction planned?
    ==========================


    The redemptive death and resurrection of Christ was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world.

    " ... you were redeemed ... with the precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, [the blood] of Christ;

    Who was fo ...[text shortened]... imply read. She or he should take them to God in prayer - talk to God about them honestly.
    I'm an atheist so I dont plan on talking to God about anything!

    thank you to everyone who replied - but I'm none the wiser; God has everything planned(?) including the crucifiction from day 1 !?!

    If everything is planned that surely means no free-will. It also means God has no decisiions to make since He did all his planning before hand. Just doesnt stack-up.
  10. Standard memberPalynka
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    02 Jan '10 11:14
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    If everything is planned that surely means no free-will.
    Not necessarily:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism_and_incompatibilism
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    02 Jan '10 11:161 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I'm an atheist so I dont plan on talking to God about anything!

    thank you to everyone who replied - but I'm none the wiser; God has everything planned(?) including the crucifiction from day 1 !?!

    If everything is planned that surely means no free-will. It also means God has no decisiions to make since He did all his planning before hand. Just doesnt stack-up.
    ================================
    I'm an atheist so I dont plan on talking to God about anything!
    ==========================


    That is of course your perogative. But the truth is ultimately a living Person.
    You appear to be searching for the truth, or at least you want me to believe you are searching for the truth.

    I telling you honestly, the end of that path is a living Person. But you'resaying "I don't want any relationship" with a living Person - Christ.

    ====================================
    God has everything planned(?) including the crucifiction from day 1 !?!

    If everything is planned that surely means no free-will.
    =====================================


    How do you know that ?

    ==================================
    It also means God has no decisiions to make since He did all his planning before hand. Just doesnt stack-up.
    ===================================


    That is an old philosophical debate which I don't think 2000 years of debating has settled - Does God's foreknowledge mean there is no free will ?

    Any way, I lived without Christ and I met Christ. I never felt any sense or coercion.

    In this modern age when science talks about possible time travel and bent space and singularities without mass and strings which are so small you would need an atom smasher the size of the whole galaxy to munipulate them ... I mean with quite difficult concepts to get my mind around, I am less bothered by the tension between and eternal God's foreknowledge, predestination, and His creature's free will.

    What I mean is science has shown us that the universe may be queerer than we can imagine. So I can appreciate that the revelation of the Bible contains aspects of God and His purpose which seem queerer than I can imagine.
  12. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    02 Jan '10 11:28
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]================================
    I'm an atheist so I dont plan on talking to God about anything!
    ==========================


    That is of course your perogative. But the truth is ultimately a living Person.
    You appear to be searching for the truth, or at least you want me to believe you are searching for the truth.

    I telling y ...[text shortened]... he Bible contains aspects of God and His purpose which seem queerer than I can imagine.[/b]
    Jaywill - I'm not looking for the "Truth" as you put it. That would be futile.

    I am interested in religion from an academic perspective.

    I will not try and convert you to atheism so please don't preach to me or argue.

    I am just interested in how believers solve some of the paradoxes that their religions throw at them.

    Thanks again.
  13. Standard memberPalynka
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    02 Jan '10 11:32
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I am just interested in how believers solve some of the paradoxes that their religions throw at them.
    Can some non-believers help?
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    02 Jan '10 11:39
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Jaywill - I'm not looking for the "Truth" as you put it. That would be futile.

    I am interested in religion from an academic perspective.

    I will not try and convert you to atheism so please don't preach to me or argue.

    I am just interested in how believers solve some of the paradoxes that their religions throw at them.

    Thanks again.
    ==========================
    Jaywill - I'm not looking for the "Truth" as you put it. That would be futile.
    ==============================


    Okay. But how do you know it would be futile ?

    =====================================
    I am interested in religion from an academic perspective.
    ================================


    Okay.
    You don't want to taste the food. You just want to study the menu.

    I think I can recall something like that.

    ===================================
    I will not try and convert you to atheism so please don't preach to me or argue.
    ===================================


    Hey, you have as equal of chance of convincing me that I should be an atheist.

    I am thinking of coining a new word - "Evangelphobic"

    ============================
    I am just interested in how believers solve some of the paradoxes that their religions throw at them.

    Thanks again.
    =============================


    Why are you curious ?
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    02 Jan '10 11:43
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Not necessarily:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism_and_incompatibilism
    Thank you for that link Palynka.

    I see that the argument relies heavily on using a definition of free-will which is kinda counter-intuitive and therefore, to my mind, cheating.

    I was however interested in

    "This is countered by the realization that a free-willed God is not constrained to realize everything, nor to consider all choices to be of equal attention"

    which I feel is a much more interesting and realistic notion.

    In other words God just isnt bothered with the minitiae of the universe thus allowing us free-will. Minitiae to a godd could/would include war, pestilence, famine and tsunami thus letting Him of the hook.

    He could then occupy His time with making new galaxies and making sub-atomic physics ever more perplexing.
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