Originally posted by telerionHey! Darfius's views on the "vileness of human nature" does not reflect the thought of all (or even most of) Christianity.
Before I jump to conclusions about Darfius' response to 2), I'd like to know his answer to 4).
3) was exactly what I expected. If I had written out my guess in my previous post, I would have used the word 'vile' as well. Xtianity is so self-deprecating.
That's fair. My apologies. It was a mistake to pigeon hole all of xtianity into the Darfius interpretation.
So maybe most xtians don't have such an intense characterization of Man's fallen state, but don't you think it is a central tenet of xtianity that man is indeed a sinful and wicked creature and that without redemption from God man is lost?
You are Catholic, right? I was not raised Catholic, but my wife was, as well as some of my friends. Isn't suffering and guilt for our wickedness a major pillar of the Catholic faith?
Originally posted by ColettiOriginally posted by thesonofsaul
[b]Even though Christianity offers answers to these explosive questions about God, answers that many people find apt and not at all conrtadictory, my opinion is that to claim the will of God is the greatest and perhaps the only true blasphemy around.
Strong claim. But if there is a Creator, why ...[text shortened]... ?
(P.S. Another excellent thread. I really need to get my star again so I can rec' posts)[/b]GOD will is clearly known,man has refused to accept HIS will. This is the battle of the three wills GOD'S, man's, satan's. GOD had clearly intended that there would only be one will His.
Originally posted by telerionThe sinful state of man (note: that's different from saying that human nature is sinful) and the necessity of redemption are pillars of Christian faith (any denomination). But the necessity of some form of redemption from our imperfect lives is part of the pillar of any religion.
That's fair. My apologies. It was a mistake to pigeon hole all of xtianity into the Darfius interpretation.
So maybe most xtians don't have such an intense characterization of Man's fallen state, but don't you think it is a central tenet of xtianity that man is indeed a sinful and wicked creature and that without redemption from God man is lost? ...[text shortened]... y friends. Isn't suffering and guilt for our wickedness a major pillar of the Catholic faith?
Originally posted by blindfaith101But if it was His will that man and Satan have free will, and He knew that this would be the result of giving it to them, then this is His will.
GOD will is clearly known,man has refused to accept HIS will. This is the battle of the three wills GOD'S, man's, satan's. GOD had clearly intended that there would only be one will His.
Originally posted by lucifershammerWould you say that the following is a fair characterization of your view: "While not perfect, man is basically good, however he has a debt to God that keeps him apart from his creator,"?
The sinful state of man (note: that's different from saying that human nature is sinful) and the necessity of redemption are pillars of Christian faith (any denomination). But the necessity of some form of redemption from our imperfect lives is part of the pillar of any religion.
Originally posted by telerionIs it GOD'S will is a will of peace. But those of his creation that have free choice HE allows them to use it. Did HE know the results of the created creatures choosing to go their own way, yes. But Lucifer and man did not have to make the choice to have their own will. Just as GOD has the Laws of obedience, HE has laws for disobedience.
But if it was His will that man and Satan have free will, and He knew that this would be the result of giving it to them, then this is His will.
Originally posted by telerionWhy do you say that man is basicly good? Anything apart from the Perfect will of GOD, is evil.
Would you say that the following is a fair characterization of your view: "While not perfect, man is basically good, however he has a debt to God that keeps him apart from his creator,"?
I regard your answer to 2 as just the typical gooblygook and assertions from you that we've come to expect; positive statements about the nature of God that are illogical and internally inconsistent. Most of these points have been made mincemeat of in other threads, so I won't bother to respond in detail except to say it seems to border on blasphemous to define God's purpose in terms of what a small percentage of Man is supposedly destined to i.e. "to share his perfect life He has".
How can you both not believe in God and then claim to know what would be blasphemous? Can't have your cake...
Your answer to 3 is unsurprising and telling. It is no shock that you find Man's character "vile"; you and your fundamentalist cult look forward with glee to the "glorius" day you think that the vast majority of Man will be condemned for all eternity.
Entirely false. We look forward to the day we will be with our Lord. If you choose to be condemned, that is your choice. If we didn't care, I wouldn't be here every day.
I reject utterly your description of Man; a billion kindnesses every day refute your characterization of Man as "vile". "We are incapable of happiness" what rot! Speak for yourself and perhaps the rest of your fundamentalist cult, Darfius; the people I know and interact with every day are capable of happiness, of kindness, of caring and of love.
Our good deeds are gifts from God. If we live comfortably in relative prosperity, we can afford to condescend to helping people. If you lived on the streets and still gave people some of the food you could find, then I would give your claim some thought. I never said Man was incapable of happiness, kindness, caring and love. What I said was that no matter how much we want to do those things, if we attempt to do them alone, our other natures such as despair, cruelness, apathy and hatred will prevent us. And when we lose all contact with God whatsoever, they will override us, because sin is stronger than Man.
I pity a young person who is filled with so much contempt and hatred for his fellow Man and don't waste your breath spouting your platitudes about how much you "love" everybody; in one paragraph you've summed up your worldview and it is based on hatred for your own kind.
If I hated you, I would sign off of these forums and do something more rewarding than have you curse my name. I hate no one, no1. I merely don't sugercoat the Truth of what we are. If man was "basically" good, Hitler never would have happened. Mao never would have happened. Stalin never would have happened. Turn on your news and tell me man is "basically" good and I will call you a liar. But Man can be good when we realize where the source of goodness comes from.
A scientific viewpoint leads me to believe that Man has a social animal is individually "good" in the sense of being inclined to do the things Jesus spoke of; help the weak, nurse the sick, etc. The human species rode to the top by social cooperation; this alone refutes your apparent thesis that "jealousy" is the overriding emotion of Man. It is true that individuals or nations are capable of great cruelties like the Midianite Massacre; however, the overriding theme of Man's development is social order and cooperation to enhance survival. Every winter where I live, people's cars get stuck in the snow and they need help getting them out; and guess what your "vile" human beings do, Darfius? Total strangers pop out of their houses with snow shovels and work in the freezing cold to help someone they might not ever see again. I see people breaking down on the road and needing a jump and someone invariably gives it to them. Every day the lives of the vast majority of people refute your twisted doctrine that the human race is "vile", Darfius and I suggest you find a belief system which accepts the fact of Man's built in tendency to cooperate and help other humans rather than one based on the lie of Man's vileness which justifies punishment for all but a tiny majority so a small cult can make themselves feel superior.
Why must you persist in calling my view unscientific? I do not hate science. I love science. It provides me with many benefits everyday. And it provides us a way of studying our Creator's handiwork.
I never said we do not help each other. But the vast majority of that help springs from empathy, rather than love. "I wouldn't want to be in that situation, so I will help." It is always selfish. And how difficult is it to dig a bit of snow? The praise that person will give you will make you think you're some kind of hero, when really you used 20 minutes of your life and will proceed to go do your own thing while people starve to death in Africa. While people are cannibalized in the Congo. While a genocide goes on in Darfur. Feel free to pat yourself on the back on the few selfish good deeds Man does, but I am only interested in the Truth. Without God, we'd all be no better than animals. The creation is nothing without it's Creator. And it's when you realize that all of our goodness is a gift from God that it becomes more your own. When you realize His love for you, you can't help but love others in a small reflection of that.
Originally posted by lucifershammerSo you could say that the main question the religion faces is what to do about our imperfection?
The sinful state of man (note: that's different from saying that human nature is sinful) and the necessity of redemption are pillars of Christian faith (any denomination). But the necessity of some form of redemption from our imperfect lives is part of the pillar of any religion.
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Originally posted by DarfiusYou're pathetic; re-read your own posts where YOU said Man was incapable of happiness and was basically "vile". Those are your words, Darfius, either you believe them or not. Care to revise your belief system or do you still insist that Man's basic character is "vile" (your word)?
[b/] I regard your answer to 2 as just the typical gooblygook and assertions from you that we've come to expect; positive statements about the nature of God that are illogical and internally inconsistent. Most of these points have b ...[text shortened]... ou, you can't help but love others in a small reflection of that.
Originally posted by blindfaith101The only way for "free will" to exist is that god doesn't KNOW the future .Otherwise, every thought and deed of man and demon is pre-ordained. Unless, god had no choice in creating man and demon, which makes for a god that doesn't have free will.
Is it GOD'S will is a will of peace. But those of his creation that have free choice HE allows them to use it. Did HE know the results of the created creatures choosing to go their own way, yes. But Lucifer and man did not have to make the choice to have their own will. Just as GOD has the Laws of obedience, HE has laws for disobedience.